DUPE AGAIN
It was either 23.5 gr or 24gr of TAC under a 77gr SMK.
They’re fun to shoot. A P90 or MP7 is an absolute hoot. MP5k is super fun, too, but a regular MP5 is just as fun, to me. All 4 of those, and probably others, have niche use that may be of value sometimes. The backpack gun, in general civilian use, for example. In military use, about the same, and also for very specific needs inside of very specific spaces. When I was issued a MP7, it rarely if ever went out with me, because it couldn’t be easily concealed without a backpack, and many places I was going at the time had no backpack rules. Sure, I could get an exception, but then I have to deal with 15 different idiots walking up to me all day to tell me about this rule. And, absent a need for concealment on my person, a 5.56 gun is better in every way. Any low-vis scenario where I could keep the MP7 at immediate reach, I could do the same with a Mk18, or even M4. And getting ammo for it could be an adventure sometimes; if you needed more mags or something, well, that’s a whole thing, too.
Super fun, though.
My experience leads me to believe that’s a fantasy. The purpose of a pistol is to have a gun on you at all times. (Rule #1) The purpose of a PDW is to have something on you at all times that isn’t a knife, pistol, pocketlint, KY packet, or grenade.(Rules 1,7,10,23)
Thanks. Good stuff.
I’m tracking that the PDW needs to be concealable. I think that also means it should be quick to deploy and quick to put away.
Otherwise you may as well have a rifle, if your state allows this and you care.
Regarding power & capacity:
Power for what? Do you want just a hit? A hit likely to stop the threat more quickly? A hit that can defeat soft armor?
If a hit will do, .22lr, 5.7, .32 (Vz61), .380, or 9x19 all work.
What can hit much harder that isn’t a rifle cartridge? A long-barreled magnum like .357 or .44? Or how about a rifle cartridge from a short, non semi-auto, folding weapon?
Capacity: I don’t think it’s extremely important. How many people can you imagine having to shoot before they leave you alone? How much do you expect to miss? How many motivated armed attackers could there be in your scenarios?
Consider suppression: Trying to get home after being forced from your vehicle? A reliable, suppressed, concealed PDW and subsonic ammo would make a great companion.
I’m thinking the weapon should fit in a common sized backpack at the largest but ideally could be carried on your person in a chest holster or with sling covered by clothing.
Just bringing up more thought about this.
So like I said, laptop bag, actually it’s a MP5k soft case but I just tell everyone it’s my laptop. That means I can roll through the grocery store, Walmart or whatever. Can’t really do that with a rifle, even a SBR in most cases. Some places might question even a small back pack, nobody second guesses a laptop bag.
As far as capacity, since I can carry 3 mags plus the one in the firearm, I’m going to. Going back to the Trayvon riots, if they stopped traffic we could have been talking a few hundred people. Not sure how many rounds I’m gonna need but I want to have “more than I’ll need.” My goal is to be on my way, not there to shoot people if I can avoid it.
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Yes, “more rounds than you need” is the number to have.
But as we’ve seen in some court cases regarding use of deadly force in a riot scenario, DF, even the threat of DF, can’t be used against a crowd / people en mass, generally.
It can be used against the guy trying to set your neighbors house on fire, guy #2, who is about to throw a lit bottle-bomb at you in your car, the girl pointing a High Point carbine at you, or guys #3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 with sticks and bricks trying to encircle you while making threats.
I can’t imagine a scenario where one would need 5 30 rd mags to get home / survive being attacked by rioters and the less weight / bulk carried the better.
2 or 3 spare mags sounds like a reasonable “more than enough” without being excessive weight & bulk to me. Especially since I consider the PDW additional to the sidearm, not a replacement.
Even in these scenarios one would likely have explain and justify every shot fired, eventually.
So the legal system can go F itself. I understand when DF is needed and when we’ve crossed that point of no return.
I also understand it’s no win.
If I shoot a bunch of people trying to riot mob me, I might lose everything and spend the rest of my life in jail.
If I don’t shoot those people, I might really well lose my life or spend the rest of my life and all my money trying to stay alive. Sure as hell my Obama care isn’t gonna 100% cover what a racist mob would do to me.
And even if I accidentally enter the riot zone but don’t shoot them but somehow get away, I can be expected be June 6th anyway and lose everything I have on legal fees.
Basically it’s a mostly lose, no win situation no matter what. Given that in the end I can’t win, I might as well be taking it to the people who created the situation in the first place. They could have let me peacefully be on my way but they decided to make life decisions for me.
The conclusions I’ve come to so far:
The PDW needs to be pretty concealable. An MP5K sized gun is the large end.
Capacity isn’t a primary driver. 15-30 rd mags X3 is probably enough for every scenario of E&E a dangerous area. Mags can also be dropped or damaged and two spares is just wise.
Deployment should be fast. Drawing the gun from whatever it’s in, extending a stock or brace, inserting a magazine, and chambering a round is not acceptable IMHO. Too slow. The gun needs to be able to be quickly concealed again, too.
Should the gun be suppressed? How powerful should the cartridge be? Is the brace / stock / cheek rest absolutely required or is a gun steadied with two hands or two hands and sling tension acceptable?
I haven’t decided these, yet.
I agree, MP5k is the far end, I like my TP9 but it’s amazing loud and Rotex suppressors aren’t cheap or even easy to access.
Pulling from a laptop bag in condition one is pretty fast and easy. It’s usually on a shoulder strap so it’s not unlike a shoulder holster. It’s got pouches for 3 spare mags so that is how many I have. I can fold the stock and recase it pretty easy too.
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I agree, MP5k is the far end, I like my TP9 but it’s amazing loud and Rotex suppressors aren’t cheap or even easy to access.
Pulling from a laptop bag in condition one is pretty fast and easy. It’s usually on a shoulder strap so it’s not unlike a shoulder holster. It’s got pouches for 3 spare mags so that is how many I have. I can fold the stock and recase it pretty easy too.
Should the PDW be suppressed?
Good:
-They work better on a PDW with a fixed barrel as opposed to a typical pistol. As in more reliable function.
-Protects your hearing. But we are talking about pistol cartridges here, they aren’t extremely loud, especially outdoors.
-If quiet enough, “they” may not know exactly where you are. But if they don’t know where you are, are they actually a grievous threat to you? If not, you’re accomplishing your goal without firing.
Neutral, good, or bad:
-People in the area may not realize the noise you’re making are gun shots. That could be good, if it makes others run. Or bad, if they keep attacking because they don’t understand what you’re capable of. If your gunshots are recognized as such you will also attract the Police. That could be good or bad.
Bad:
-Adds cost to your set up and increases the loss if stolen.
-Makes your PDW longer and heavier
-A prosecutor will use this against you if you end up in court. Yes, that is a bullshit move, but if they are prosecuting you, they will use this against you.
These points make me think the suppressor isn’t highly necessary of a PDW. But if someone thinks it is, I’d like to hear the reason.
How powerful should the cartridge be?
If we’re going on the premise that we aren’t carrying 240 rds but more like 45-90, cartridge weight probably isn’t a large concern. The extremes would be .22LR / 5.8 mm (under 1/2 lb) on one end and .45 acp (3 lbs for 90 rds of 230 gr) on the other, not including magazines. (1 and 3/4 lbs for 90 rds of 124 gr 9x19)
What do you need this cartridge to do? What range are we talking about?
Because we are talking about such a small weapon being used to E&E, we can figure the ranges will be short. 300 yds? No. 200? Nope. You needed a rifle. 100 yds? That could be a person shooting at you across a store parking lot. Sure. Let’s say we can articulate a threat and identify the target at 100 yds.
What cartridge do we need?
If getting a hit, any hit, seems like enough to you to get someone to leave you alone, .22 LR may work for you. You will lose velocity with a short barrel (8 inch max, perhaps?) but if you use the hot stuff you may have a 40 gr bullet at 1200 fps. That’s about a foot of drop at 100 yds IIRC. The wind will push it around, too, if windy. That bullet won’t be going that fast when it gets there, either, and will do very poorly against cover. If you’re using subsonic ammo, you’ll have even more drop and worse performance. Given the reliability drop that normally goes with .22 LR (and .22 mag) and I’d advise against using it for this unless you are going for the quietest gun method of E&E.
If you want your hits to have a greater chance of ending a threat with as few shots as possible, out to 100 yds and increased weapon reliability you want a centerfire cartridge of some velocity or mass. 5.8, 9x19, .40, .45, .357, 10mm, .44. Again, subsonic bullets are going to have considerable drop by 100 yds and do poorly against cover. (850 fps or less by the time they get there)
Are threats wearing armor a concern? It’s a possibility. Armor is cheap. Expect those wearing it to have rifles, too. Possibly plates. Will the round we choose from this PDW penetrate IIIA or push into it enough to cause serious injury? It’s possible, bullet and load depending, at close range. Not at 100 yds. Precise aiming is probably the better suggestion.
How about getting those hits at 100 yds more easily? A brace / stock should help. I’d like to test this out for myself but from what I’ve seen it seems very short braces / stocks don’t aid this much. They seem to help more with shot recovery at close ranges but after a certain distance they don’t seem to help much if any. Anyone have experience regarding this?
I have used my Ap5K with brace folded using the sling and two hands (one in front of mag one on the pistol grip) and this was much faster and controllable than I expected to be against a timer. Better than a common pistol for sure. I’ve only tested that out to 25 yds though. I need to get out to at least 50 yards and test this. (Brace vs no brace)
What kind of precision can we expect at 100 yds? With a common pistol with optic and recent practice? 10 inch group with a very good shooter? While in fear of his life? How about with an AP5P or similar with or without a brace or stock? (I know mine is very accurate…at 25 yds)
As for closer ranges, we can expect needing to switch targets very quickly. Penetrating things like cars or other obstacles is desirable should one be attacked by mobile attackers. Should the PDW fail for whatever reason drawing the sidearm in a hurry would be needed.
duplicate
Suppression is a nice option. 147 gr 9mm is very effective. Heavy hitting, quiet round. If people are dropping, it does have a dramatic effect without the muzzle blast of unsuppressed. In the end it’s a nice option.
If I’m dealing with an angry mob, attracting law enforcement for me is usually a bonus.
It does increase length, but weight is negligible. Another advantage to subgun suppressors vs. carbine round suppressors.
If I survive, I honestly don’t give a F what the prosecutor will try and do. You can defend yourself against BLM with a side by side coach gun and they will still come after you with everything they got.
I honestly thing outdoors, the suppressor give a slight, but not a dramatic advantage. If you end up indoors, like some jackass decides to shoot up the mall, they are gonna be a big bonus.
The other things suppressors do is make me load 147 gr vs 124 gr rounds. So there is a slight ballistic advantage.
Since my attempt to build a .357sig have been a total failure, I have gone back to my B&T TP9 for PDW duties.
I don’t feel the need to carry it very often, but it is good to have just in case.
I am not sure USPSA results matter. Training for gun games is not the same as Real Life Usage™
Something that should be mentioned is drop safety.
If the gun isn’t as “drop safe” as a common handgun, it shouldn’t be toted with a round in the chamber. This slows getting it into action, will require both hands, probably, and is an action that be screwed up, inducing a stoppage.
MP5 series is drop safe.
That’s awesome.
More so than an AR? Maybe less than a common pistol?