Bigger than a common pistol, smaller than a common “SBR” (Rifle cartridge, short barrel, shoulderable)
What capability should it give you beyond a common pistol?
Full auto?
Reliable sound suppression?
A stock?
More powerful cartridge?
An optic?
Ammo capacity?
I know these don’t replace the common pistol. I’m just trying to decide for myself when it’s worth the additional effort and thought I’d gather some opinions.
For example, my VZ61 semi has no stock. Just a rear-mounted sling and a three lug adapter for the suppressor. I had an RDS on it but practice confirmed my suspicion that the mount was sub-par.
How is it better than a pistol? Well, it suppresses reliably and has a fast rate of fire due to the trigger and low recoil. That’s about it. And the cartridge is a step down.
My AP5K makes sense. 30 rd mags, folding brace, QD optic, reliable suppression, definitely better than a pistol. Though it’s not tiny, and I’d like to vet it more with JHP’s. Until I do I’d just use FMJ. A pistol can have an optic & big mags, too, and easily feed JHP’s.
So, what characteristics really make a PDW better than a pistol.
For a PDW for an individual, I don’t think FA is a practical consideration because for most it’s so cost prohibitive and you are limited to existing firearms on the registry.
I think for a practical PDW it is just a better platform than a handgun in a smaller package than a carbine.
Stock, suppression capability, optics, high capacity magazine all in a package slightly larger than a full size handgun. That said, things like 6933s and others are bluring the line between AR packages and subgun platforms and some 5.56 are getting close to PDW size packages, although I personally think 10.3" is the minimum length for 5.56 to be any kind or reliable performer.
Things like Vz61s (with a wire stock), M-10/11s and Mini Uzis can fill this role but they are sorta legacy PDWs with less than ideal stocks and limited mounting options. Platforms from HK and B&T are a lot more up to date.
This might be where the intermediate calibers like .300BLK come into their own. 9-11" barrel on a .30ish-cal braced pistol or “Other Title I” with subsonic ammo?
(Says the guy who when WA’s bans are overturned is toying with the idea of a 12.5" AR PDW in .30-06… but not for indoors, for Armored Threat defense loading WWII Old School AP Ball M2)
Do you want to trust your life to ammo made 75 years ago? How reliable is it, and what are the ballistics from a 12.5" barrel?
Fun idea, but no thanks. I suspect M855 in a similar sized package - probably a 16" barrel relative to a .30-06 long action with a 12.5" - would work better.
In my state any “pistol” can be carried most places under a CPL, while any rifle has to be unloaded, in the trunk, and is in a legal gray area for routine car carry if you aren’t going to/from a range or hunting spot. So, here, a CZ Scorpion gen3 offers 35rds of reliable 9mm in a platform that mounts a rifle size RDS and good ergonomics. There are a couple other brands that offer a similar option right now.
Not something I need 99.9% of the time though, would mostly be an item if I had to rescue family members from a riot area or something like that. Most uses are better served by a full sized ordinary handgun that you are good with - take your pick of Glock 17/20/22, P320, M&P, whatever floats your boat.
I have an Extar EP9 which is decent in a pistol config with Glock mags…however the Flux Defense carrier is a decent option for a backpack and 40 rounds at the ready…
My opinion: I think where a PDW shines is farther distances. After all, a pistol round by and large, is just a pistol round. Most PDWs that are pistol caliber will have barrels around 5", so really no ballistic advantage relative to a pistol. However, higher capacity magazines, and with a brace/stock, you can push that round farther, faster, accurate…ier.
Whereas a SBR that’s too short becomes a fancy pistol, as you lose the advantage of speed. Get a .223/5.56 round under 1000 FPS, and you basically just have a light caliber pistol round.
While I do have a Stribog, I haven’t really found a real use for it. Initially I thought home defense, but with a Mk18 clone with a suppressor, that’s basically covered. I can’t CCW it all day. It’s bigger and clunkier than a pistol. Maybe it’s a little shorter than a SBR, but not appreciably (with the brace extended). But, it is fun!
Not vintage of manufacture, but the recipe - AP M2 is the only civilian-legal “armor piercing round” because it’s the only thing the M1 Garand is meant to fire so CMP got it a carveout. Remember, the concept here is going for busting plates and Turning ‘Cover’ Into ‘Concealment’, not going for mid- or long-range… though the recoil on a .30-06 pistol, even a braced one, would have to be absolutely brutal.
So, some are saying the advantage of a PDW over a pistol is range.
I would add time from threat to hit and ease of getting hits.
I think that means a shoulder and / or cheek point of contact.
An optic would be preffered unless it makes the package too big, but I think it would be pretty important.
I don’t think capacity is a big part of it. The plan is to survive and break contact. 20 rounds would probably be plenty. 2-4extra mags plenty. I understand the idea is to have more than enough.
Suppression? Might depend where you are. In a building, yes, rifle cartridge yes. Fleeing an angry horde? I’m not sure, probably.
To me, it’s a niche weapon when one wants the smallest size while still offering three points of contact (when equipped with a stock or brace, that is). I used to carry a side-folding UMP .40 when working with ATV’s and boats, or simply stowed away in a small case in the truck and it was very convenient as opposed to a SBR.
The new SIG rifle in 300BK with the short barrel is pretty sweet. But a PDW isn’t going to help much in a normal street-crime situation very well. If things get REALLY crappy and say crime gangs start doing organized ‘attacks’ on public spaces to rob people, or the left or Hamas-hole types start to get really anti-social then the ability to deploy it and use its range and capabilities to engage multiple targets quickly bsuppressors ecomes useful. Not very likely scenarios. I guess home defense with the new cartel and gang attacks with multiple people.
IF SBRs and suppressors get a lot more common/‘legal’, maybe we see more integrated barrel/suppressors for PDWs, SBRs, and even pistols. I do agree with the idea that SBR ARs have kind of hurt the Pistol calibre PDWs, for LEO/MIL especially.
Wish we could get ‘real’ 5.7 ammo…
Would someone please put Garand Thumb in a movie so he’ll stop these ‘vinettes’.
2,5, and 6 can be had with a pistol,
For me, 1 and 3, in a small package (lage m11/9, mp9, mp5k, etc)
Or 3 and 4 (300blk)
The lage uppers and stocks take the m10/11s to 90+% of an mp9. The worst part is the open bolt single shot practical accuracy and weight. In auto, performance and attachment ability are pretty much the same.
Last time I did it was a MP5k-PDW when Trayvon rioters were trying to block interstate traffic. Had a P226 on my hip and the HK in a laptop bag. Just something about 3 points of contact that is really comforting if you might have to practice target discrimination with a large, angry crowd who decided to stop traffic.
Thankfully I was able to negotiate around planned roadblocks every time so it didn’t become a problem.
I had kind of forgotten about those and you are correct. It was always funny to see somebody with a M10 win the Knob Creek subgun match over the guys with MP5s and Uzis. Lesson being “practice makes proficiency” and probably something about the quantity of registered M10s in circulation.
Well, looking at it now in light of recent events, things have changed.
When I put together my PDW I wanted to go with like Ammo and as many components as possible, so I decided to go with an AR style pistol and due to all of the drama I foresaw, I skipped the arm brace and just went with a pistol buffer and a crutch tip.
It’s pretty handy and 100% of what I was going for, I’m actually surprised they are not more popular.
IMO that’s an “SBR” unless you’re talking about a 7.5 in barrel and / or a folding buffer tube. And then it really needs a suppressor with a barrel that short.
I just put the tube back on my VZ61. Extra point / points of contact/support are the biggest improvements a PDW has over a pistol.
To me a PDW is close to a handgun posture, so long as you are using defensive ammo you are fine because everything is happening inside 50 yards or so. I agree with Ron3, if you go up to 5.56 you are talking about a SBR and running at least a 10.5" barrel. Because you really aren’t gonna handgun a 5.56 beyond 50 yards with the same accuracy that a SBR is going to give you at that range. The distinction is smaller than it was 20 years ago, but it still exists.
My 30+ year old HK SP89 with brace fits what I thought of as a PDW, and with an RMR and light, it fits into a small backpack along with 8 mags and a ultra-lightweight chest rig. However, when I saw the B&T USW-A1, I thought ‘wow - now THAT’S a PDW!’. Has anyone here shot the USW-A1 next to an MP5K-PDW?
