Personally I don’t much like AR’s as toys. That’s what I have a C&R license for…
Mine is a defensive weapon. Frankly I want it to work. Thankfully mine works like a dream.
When people are new to a weapon like the AR, I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing out the way that things should be done and educating them. After all, isn’t that why this site is here?
I don’t think we ought to immediately go “You bought a Bushmaster?? Oh NOEZ!! UR rifle is teh suxorrz!!” (pardon my attempt at replicating teenager speak…) but steering newbies to the right choices and reasons for them is a good thing, in my humble opinion…
I agree. But you have to take their real needs into account, and you have to know when to just give your two-bits worth and walk away. Some people just won’t listen, or they’ve been pumped so full of BS by gun shop clerks or their “gun guy” friend that there’s no changing their mind.
Define reliable. If the guy is only ever taking the rifle to the range once every two months and shooting 100 rounds through it per visit, and it’s run 100% of the time, but it’s an Oly Plinker, is it reliable?
That is because YOU think that you’ll use your carbine to defend yourself and/or your family. The VAST majority of shooters are not in the same boat and do NOT view their AR15 carbine as anything more than just a toy. For them, “almost as good” is MORE than good enough, and they are willing to sacrifice quality for a lower cost.
And you wonder why you don’t seem to fit into any of these boards…:rolleyes:
Oh that’s right… you are an “Independent thinker”… You don’t “Conform” to the mainstream… I suppose you carry the cheapest Insurance premium because the likelihood of you ever being in an Auto Accident is pretty slim… Home owners Insurance… why bother… the odds are slim you’ll need it.
But yet you take one of Pat’s classes which is clearly geared towards "Fighting with a carbine…Interesting…
Unlike you… I want to be the third pig who builds his house out of Brick so when the Wolf comes I’m ready… so guys like you who build your house out of straw have somewhere to run to when it gets blown over…
But I guess I’ve always been the “Boy Scout” type who would rather be prepared and never need it vs guys like you who wait till it’s to late.
Like Pat always says… Any Buckethead (actually I say that) with a gun can shoot… that’s just part of the equation.
Still waiting on your “review” of Pat’s class… can’t wait to hear it from “your perspective”…
I’m going to use your post as an example to further explain why I dont like that word.
This is exactly why you DONT take their needs into account. I dont know what someone else needs. You dont know what someone else needs. You simply explain to them why you use what you use, how you use it, why you use it, etc. Then they can make their own decision as to whether its right for them or not. Why they think they do or dont need something is completely irrelevant to me anyway. I dont concern myself with it.
The goal of using high quality parts or buying from a Tier 1 or Tier 1.5 maker is to try and get a weapon that has the largest chance of being reliable right out of the box. If a guy can get a Bushmaster like mine that has performed superbly in multiple high-round count training courses, that’s awesome. Good on him. (err…me…whatever…) If he can do the same with an Oly or a DPMS…More power to him.
Personally my standard for a defensive rifle is that it has to survive a 3,000 round training course with no major problems. If it can do that, I don’t have the slightest hesitation to depend on the rifle.
I get that you are trying to say that reliability is in the eye of the beholder and that a guy who doesn’t use or intend to use his rifle for serious purposes doesn’t need the same standard of reliability that someone going to award virgins in Afghanistan needs…
But in all honesty, for the kind of money these things cost today and how simple it is to do little things right…I don’t think it is out of line to expect better, even if the weapon isn’t going to be dragged through exotic locales.
However, I understand Rob’s point. I know of people who talk about using their ARs for defensive purposes. However, most of them do not. Nor would they be able to do so if required. They have neither the gear, magazines or ammo on hand. Their talk about defensive use of their AR is nothing more than “cloud talk.” A cheaply made AR will serve their purposes. However, back to J_W’s comment, why build them cheap?
Part of these problems are related to alot of fields nowadays. People either do not know how to do the job right or have no pride in their work.
You see it everywhere.
It’s true, regardless of how you use the stick, you should expect to get a quality product–especially if you payed more for what you would expect to be quality.
Alot of problems arise when people buy the cheap knockoff stuff or low rate parts that are priced accordingly and try to put them to true use and wonder why the stuff doesn’t work.
I gotta agree with Grant here. Those M-4 cuts just look plain shitty. Functional perhaps but I’d never accept it. More importantly, that gas key way is totally unacceptable and stands a very good chance of coming loose.
To say that hey all these guys are just hobbyist who only shoot a few hundred rounds through their piece is a poor attempt to excuse a main line AR mfg. of shoddy workmanship. If we all said, hey my customer is just a hobby guy so I can slack on the quaility of my product, it would be a sad state of affairs.
I think the best solution is to have an equipment check at the start of the class, and properly stake keys that aren’t, lube guns that aren’t, and address any other easily-fixed yet oft-recurring problems.
We tried that, but it eats up a fair amount of time at the beginning of the class. I have an article on my website “Coming to Class” where i specifically state that people should bring serviceable guns/ magazines/ ammunition etc to class.
There is only so much hand holding that i am willing to do. Lack of common sense adversely effects everyone no matter which end it is played out on.
However, not everyone that has a problem is a window licker.
Good guys, very sharp in their trade may have problems due to life cycle issues. Sometime feces happens.
However, most issues occur because people buy just a good as for a variety of reasons, or are not aware of certain issues- another reason why people attend gun skul.
You may have noticed that neither Mike nor I had more than a few minutes down time during the 3 days, and that is how it should be. People are paying money to learn, and part of that process is to talk face to face with the instructors and get first hand info that may not be available elsewhere.
I can state that certain brands may be more prone to problems at the start of every class, but that doesn’t mean that any given bushamster will die or Colt/ LMT will work flawlessly.
I see Orlite mags that work. Denny Hansen had an Oly that ran through several classes.
I have seen guys shoot Greek ammo and Wolf ammo and even some Main Cartridge ammo w/o problems.
I haven’t seen any PCA work, though one magazine swears that it is the best thing since sliced bread.
Bottom line is this. People have to be responsible for their actions. Driving a car, operating a gun or buying baby clothes.
Suggestions can be heeded or ignored, but most often people are unaware of issues before hand.
Training classes are adult education opportunities.
Nothing drives home a point more readily than failing at something (anything).
I’d prefer everyone showed up with top notch everything, but for the open classes, that is just a wish.
My boss and I took our first proper fighting course in Aug2005 (I got to stack with KevinB) . We spent the prior 60 days sorting out our guns and gear, my view was that given the expense involved in taking a course there was NO excuse for us to show up with shitty equipment and price tags still on our webbing. I simply did not want to be “that guy” who held the class back, I wish others had done the same. Kevin, you unfecked the gun so quick we didn’t even take notice dude.
Sparrow, you make an excellent point, and in a perfect world that would be the “A” answer.
For most of the open classes, most of the average Joe’s- earth people- are gainfully employed in real jobs and may not have the time or incentive to do as you suggest.
I would strongly prefer that everyone have GTG gear and a switched on mind, but perfection exists only in certain portions of northern Europe and only from certain companies.
In the meantime, we’ll just keep educating people by whatever means available.
And machining them like that without knowing where the friggin’ barrel will end up is exactly why a rifle I built for a friend wouldn’t run the first day. LMT M4 ramps did not line up with them and I had to file that extra metal you see in the CMMG extension out so the Radway wouldn’t get caught on it.
Steve- If M4 ramps aren’t necessary, then RRA should really be chastized for scarring a rifle while trying to put them in as an afterthought. Why the F%^& are they STILL doing that shit?
. We spent the prior 60 days sorting out our guns and gear, my view was that given the expense involved in taking a course there was NO excuse for us to show up with shitty equipment and price tags still on our webbing. I simply did not want to be “that guy” who held the class back, I wish others had done the same. Kevin, you unfecked the gun so quick we didn’t even take notice dude.