I think where some of the “discussion” occurs is when it starts to sound like “all brand X AR’s are crap”
I liked Pats statement
“that doesn’t mean that any given bushamster will die or Colt/ LMT will work flawlessly”
I know that my own narrow experience does not amount to a statistically significant sample size but…
I actually own an RRA carbine that was (apparently) built on a “good day”
My local shop did not have any colts…they basically sold Bushmasters, and occaisonal Armalite and RRA.
I looked at them all and picked the RRA
While my key is not staked to MOACKS levels it appears to be sufficent
And after more than 7,000 rounds mine is still tight and the the rifle runs like a top. A big day for me is around 500 rds and the average is more likely half that…and I shoot (on average) once a week unless the evil bill convinces me to play hooky in the morning
I have no recollection of the appearance of my feed ramps but the short version is…they work.
So it becomes a little like reliability discussions…
I have two handguns that are both 100% reliable…which is MORE reliable???
Would I buy another RRA based on some of this reporting…
Easy answer. Without a statisticaly significant number of failures observed, you cannot know which one is more reliable. Reliability is about looking at past performance (or lack of in this case) and making extrapolations about future performance. Without having seen a significant number of failures in the past, you have NO information with which to forcast to any reasonable degree of certainty. Your only discriminator is that you have more confidence that the gun with MORE failure free rounds through it is more reliable.
Statistical Confidence is something that very important when you talk about probabilities.
Statistical confidence is also something that most people do not grasp.
RRA and BM make good AR’s and Colt/LMT make bad ones. It happens. What you have to look at is the big picture. Meaning, if I took 100 tier 2/3 AR’s and 100 tier 1 AR’s and ran them all the same. How many of the tier 2/3 AR’s would hold up and how many of the tier 1 AR’s would run well?
I had a fellow gunsmith call me today and we were discussing some of the things that RRA does wrong. Two of the items have been covered here already (dremel’d feed ramps and poor staking). This gentlemen was about to remove a RRA installed Receiver Extension (buffer tube) and remove a RRA factory installed YHM FF rail system. Both of these items were installed with red loctite! As we all know, red loctite and torque do NOT paint a very pretty picture. After lots of heat, 290 pounds of brute force and a 4 foot cheater bar the RE and rail came off. This is not how you build a quality AR IMHO.
I want to thank you for posting this post. For nothing more than I was at one time of the belief that RRA was a good and reputable company. I am sure there are things they do right, but loctiting parts on an AR is not one of them.
I am so glad I went the route I went now.
Thanks again, from a consumer who would have never known, until it was far too late!
quality always dips during heightened production of any American product. Increased orders and managements demand for time tables to be kept cause this crap to occur unless morons are hired i.e crude staking and Dremeled feed ramps. Do you think the DEA’s weapons look like that? …just asking.
Fortunately for me my two RRA’s we built during a time when there was a certain reliability mystique associated with RRA they did have a ‘JobShop’ status which is why BIGBORE defends them and I as well. Today I dont know nice people but do I want the above mentioned issues …NO !
I have seen this same discussion take place on many occasions regarding one company or another this part or that color.
I am not making excuses for RRA these things should never happen and the Larsons’ should make amends immediately and take steps to do things right. Deadlines…contracts …bills …payroll …greed issues business owners must deal with before anything is put in a box and shipped but issues we do not want popping up under pressure and this is certainly where they will.
RRA hangs a hook and people bite it doesn’t mean that person bought an inferior product overall. Actually I am sure stevem@rockriverarms.com
would be interested in hearing any and all complaints what he can do I dont know but the squeaky wheel does get oiled by RRA I know this for a fact. Does the Chairman of the Board walk down on the production line @ Colt to see if thing are going OK? When I was a teen-ager I used to do piece work in a factory making Contour Chairs and I cannot believe QC used to pass the frames we put together, we met our goals though. And if I would have approached the owner and explained how far from spec things actually were he would have lost his fucking mind, but the Corporate world seems to think haste and quality are attainable when combined.
I have about 3 thousands round on my RRA bolt carrier and bolt and I put a one piece gas ring on the bolt keep the firing pin channel free of carbon and she runs just fine but damn, Grant that is a good deal on your bolts …
And I know mine might breakdown if those 3k rounds had been fired in the course of 24 hours but I pray I dont have to ever run it that hard and in the next life when I am a jillion-aire I will own ALL top-notch forum accepted Tier 1 gear I know what it is NOW… but I am happy the Good Lord saw fit to provide me with what I have.
I want the Hummer but got the Explorer thats just the way it goes for some guys.
It seems like people are going out of their way to stir up shit. This stuff is not as bad as they make it out to be. They just want to be the guys that know and make people think that they know everything. It is internet grandstanding.
Dunno. The agents I work with are carrying M4s. But a couple of batches I’ve seen of the “Government Model” DEA-spec carbine, and numerous commercial guns, do look like that pictured.
I think you have to define this argument based on what you really want to achieve with your M-4 build. Many guys here agree that a weapon built as close to tier 1 or the TDP as possible is the goal. They are interested in serious, life or death work with this weapon, and their equipment and training reflect this. The fact that they are not LE/mil is irrelevant. It’s the mindset you bring to the table that counts, not your job title. Some make fun of them, calling them ersatz “gunslingers”, when the fact of the matter is armed citizens are in many cases more qualified than their LE/mil counterparts. They train for the possiblity, however remote, that one day their skills may be required. Yes, even with a carbine.
Then there are the others, the vast majority of AR owners, who for whatever reason own and shoot these rifles. Whenever the discussion on reliability comes up, they are dragged into the fray as examples of why none of this “high-end crap” is really required. They don’t really “need” an utterly reliable weapon. And the really serious folks, without some kind of credentials, are lumped in with them as wannabe cowboys.
So what this is all about is the REASON you own a M-4. I think any person, regardless of job status, who really wants to learn how to fight with this weapon, will want the best possible weapon he can obtain, with the best possible support equipment, and most importantly of all, the best training he can obtain. It doesn’t matter if he is facing imminent danger or not. It’s about being prepared as a 2d ammendment rifleman for whatever eventuallity that may or may not come.
If you define this argument from this basic premise, all this other chaff about “needs”, creds, or whatever don’t hold water.
So with this in mind, return to Grant’s original post. Would you want to stake your life on this rifle? I would upgrade this rifle with a BCM or LMT upper. I would replace the whole BCG with a CMT or LMT MPI’d bolt ass’y, and a BC with a properly staked keyway. In fact, when I was done, the only original part left would be the stripped lower.
I would assume that everyone here is a serious student of combat weaponcraft. This whole idea of whether you need a tier 1 or equivalent weapon would seem to be a no-brainer. Yet it continues to pop up.
I think there is very credible evidence that building a carbine to the TDP spec is a very good idea. Do I have irrefutable evidence and statistics to prove this? No. But I think any reasonable person who makes a study of the issue will reach this conclusion. Annecdotal evidence from reputable trainers suggests that it is so. So based on the best evidence available, I have reached this conclusion. My assumption is that anyone else who takes the time and trouble to study this issue, including formal training would reach the same conclusion.
It is hard to tell for sure but the barrel extension on the RRA that Grant started this post about does not even look like it has M4 ramps and the upper is dremel cut slightly to give the impression that it does. Same goes for the one Koalorka has pictured. The ramps cut into the extension seem to end at the edge of the outside circumference of said extension as in std. rifle ramps. M4 ramps needed to be cut by hand into both the extension and the upper:eek: The idea that anyone should get an “M4” put together this way is absurd.
I am an enthusiast and armed civilian that is always looking for the most reliable and best way with regards to all my gear. The gun that is a copy of the military weapons of the day and “purchased by DEA” should run for the rest of my life unless it is used hard and not maintained. The argument that it is good enough to let that kind of workmanship hit the street is BS! RRA should be ashamed of themselves for letting that kind of fluff pass as hand made M4 ramps. The stake job is obviously not good enough, but comes much closer to acceptable and/or understandable than the half assed attempt to make someone think they are getting M4 feed ramps that they don’t even need!
My personal experience is with an RRA carbine that needed a hammer and punch to open and take down for cleaning and put back together. Upper and lower pin holes were way beyond slightly out of alignment. It was hammered together and shipped out as if that was ok???
Well, one thing that has emerged from this discussion is any vendor can have a bad day at the factory and screw up, for whatever reason. So having a good armorer like Ken Elmore go through your piece, check and fine tune everything might not be such a bad idea. Even for your prancing ponies. Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
On RRA, well, that M-4gery job was bad. That upper should have been shit-canned and done over. Doesn’t matter if you think M-4 cuts are required or not. People want them and they should be done right.
On the BCG, you could give them a pass on that, since hardly anyone gets that right, but here again, this is one of the critical points that you should inspect and make right when doing your reliablity package.
FWIW – I wont ever buy RRA no matter what –
Remember back to their “M1993” spec receiver where they goofed on the Picatinny rail and then made up BS about it being the new US Army spec?
Nuff said about any company that could pull that sort of BS.
I have 4 RRA lowers that I bought when they were trying for the DEA contract for my own builds. They are great. Since then I have seen a dealer selling RRA 2nds as finish defect only. He gets cases of them. Well I buy one . Out of spec in the take down pins. Went back and checked some others he had. Same thing . An upper sits too high on the lower with pins in place. There was one in the case I bought cuase dimensionaly was ok. Just scratched. All this tells me RRA is has gotten sloppy and pawning there scrap off as blems. I do not know anything about their complete rifles.
Except that Ken only offers this service on Colts. he won’t work on anything else, at least that’s what his website says. And I always wondered what teh value of this service is when it’s only performed on the models that are GTG out of the box, at least that’s the conventional wisdom. To me it would make much more sense to offer this service for your standard BM/RRA since those are the units coming off the assembly line that need a thorough going over.
Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
Agreed. If nobody with the skills on Ken Elmore is willing to offer this service then it’s probably going to be contingent upon ourselves to inspect, correct, and/or build it in right the first time.
It all boils down to PRIDE do you think our grandfathers would have built a product like that! HELL NO!!! a lot were old school craftman. Do It right the frist time the best you can do. That is long gone in america today. Thats why china is taking over so many products. and people buy it! Yester day I had to go to the local auto part store browsing I found the a great little pair of pliers $1.99 made in china but you should see the quality. Look out folks!!! Were loosen it! Pride I think theres a little still around some where!~~~:(
Billy