Internet Gun Forums

General General Discussion
41

That is very true, however according to the CDC, homicide for white Americans isn’t even in the top 10 causes of death (interestingly, suicide is).

To me (and this is just my opinion), there’s a hierarchy of survivability (as opposed to the online survival “TEOTWAWKI” crowd), and good health, fitness, and just plain situational awareness and staying out of bad environments are at the top of that hierarchy. Once you address the issues that are most likely to kill you, you move down and address the next ones on the list.

To get back to the original topic, I believe the homicide rate in America is somewhere around 10/100,000, yet our birth rate is 14/100,000. This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we’re still replacing them with 14 more.:smiley: So even the people that are “clueless” about self defense are being replaced at an increasing rate.

Either way, like I said, I just like shooting with some people, and some people I don’t. It really doesn’t affect me if someone just shoots for fun as long as they don’t bug me about my outlook on survivability, and it doesn’t really bug me if someone is preparing for the end of the world as long as they don’t bug me about it. Shooters are shooters.

42

You still don’t want to be “that guy” that gets killed for not wanting to protect himself. Winning the lottery is EXTREMELY hard to do, but we see people do that everyday.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE to shoot for “fun.” In fact, I view training time as “shooting for fun.” :smiley:

C4

43

Hey bud, you left out Ft. Lauderdale from your list of crappy cities… :wink:

I have to say that you had my attention up until you made the rather crass remark above. I would have substituted the word “idiots” with “victims”, but that’s just me playing devil’s advocate… :wink:

44

Pros of Internet forums:
[ol]
[li]Opportunity to interact with guys that truly know of which they speak and are willing to share with the rest of us as long as we stay in our appropriate lane (e.g., Pat Rogers, Doc Gary Roberts, WES GRANT, Nyeti, Mark LaRue, Hilton Yam, Tim Lau, Ben Lenett, Ned Christiansen, Scott Mulkerin, Pete Single, Chuck Rogers, Richard Heinie, George Smith, Gary Smith, Stan Chen, Don Williams, Tony Kanaley, Lou Alessi, Rodger Young, Freddie Blish, Bill Harsey, Mick Strider, Ernest Emerson, and many others whose names escape me at the moment…)
[/li][li]Great way to learn about training opportunities.
[/li][li]AARs.
[/li][li]Great way to re-connect with folks you meet at training opportunities.
[/li][li]Opportunity to virtually meet some genuinely helpful folks.
[/li][li]Photos (worth thousands of words).
[/li][li]User reviews of gear.
[/li][li]Never a dull moment.
[/li][/ol]

Cons of Internet forums:
[ol]
[li]Some of the real experts are old-school and don’t participate.
[/li][li]A few bozos are all it takes to dissuade the real experts from participating.
[/li][li]Everybody is an expert (me included).
[/li][li]Opportunity to virtually meet some genuinely PITA folks.
[/li][li]Addictive; suck up a lot of my free time that I should be investing in other activities.
[/li][/ol]

45

I only used the term “idiots” because that seems to be the stance of people that are interested in self-defense towards those that don’t. It’s ironic that so many in the self-defense community complain that the “sheeple” think they’re crazy, and in the same breath talk about how crazy the “sheeple” are.

46

That isn’t really the point, but to continue your analogy…

Being overweight, smoking, eating like crap, not excercising, not wearing your seatbelt, doing drugs, and/or hanging out in the 'hood but all the while training to use firearms for self defense is akin to quitting your job because you think that you’ll eventually win the lottery.

Firearms training and preparedness are only part of the equation, they aren’t the WHOLE equation.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE to shoot for “fun.” In fact, I view training time as “shooting for fun.” :smiley:

You and me both. I think the 3 days I spent at the Pat Rogers class this past weekend was the most fun I had in quite some time.

47

I’m tracking with you Rob. Of all the things that will kill me, I think getting robbed and/or murdered falls somewhere between getting struck by lightning and choking on a chicken bone. I try to mitigate the statitically most lethal dangers: high blood pressure, staying out of rough neighborhoods, wearing my seat belt, watch what I eat, etc.

Of course, most of us got into the shooting hobby for fun. It just so happens that our ‘fun’ gives us a martial skill as a side benefit. Avoiding the lethal danger of obesity by skipping dessert is far less fun than ringing the 12" plate at 100yds with my trusty blaster.

As for the internet, it brings a greater level of connectedness than ever before. The upside of it is that it brings a lot of like-minded people together that other wise would never meet. The downside is that it connects you with all kinds of loons and goofballs, people you’d never want to meet, people that make you dumber for having talked to them. On the internet, everyone gets a voice, even the shuffling zombie horde.

48

Well said. I’ll use my treadmill more in the Battle of the Bulge more than I’ll ever use one of my personal weapons in any battle.

49

Oh how I agree with some of you. Take for instant the 280lbs keyboard commando that posts 40 times a day, after a year he becomes a moderator, after 2 he becomes staff. His greatest accomplishment was he served a few years in the Army as a cook in the Airborne.

Funny that his internet creds makes him super commando, black op’s weapons expert. Even though he never set foot one on the soil of a battlefield, he’ll tell you he was there.

These are the guys I’d like to meet face to face in the darkest of dark alley’s with the worst of intentions. But alas this is the internet and even I can be the best of the keyboard ultra Special Op’s.:rolleyes:

50

Robs

This means that for every 10 idiots that gets murdered, we’re still replacing them with 14 more.

So Some Fathers 18 year daughter off at college who gets raped and Murdered is an Idiot…

Some Husbands 40 year old wife who gets killed in a car jacking is an Idiot…

Some Grandsons grand parents who get Robbed and killed at Gunpoint while on vacation are idiots…

But I guess that’s OK because we have statistics on our side and statistically speaking were replacing those “Idiots” at an acceptable rate…:rolleyes:

That tells me all I need to know about you… no further debate necessary.

Amazingly enough you fall in to a certain statistic associated with gun boards as well…

51

I think firearms forums are similar to the firearms industry in that there is a large segment of people involved who claim to be as tough as nails but constantly act like whiny pu$$ies.

This thread is evidence of such behavior judging by certain posts.

52

Jesus H. Christ you are just bound and determined to be offended and not read the whole thread huh?

No further debate needed? This hasn’t been a debate since you haven’t discussed the points yet.

When you’re ready to actually discuss the issue at hand and stop fixating on my attire and stop picking out single words to harp on, let me know.:rolleyes:

53

What I get a kick out of (and I have not really seen here) is the false hero worship… I got an email a couple of days ago from a friend, it was a link to a post on TOS where one of the “new resident experts” was pontificating about the great black rifle… and used a large chunk of stuff from one of my tacked post in the tech section. I mean not sort of, or close, I mean cut and paste.

So I have been following that guy and a couple of the new experts that seem to have rose to the surface there lately and it is at best amusing… but the heroes have feet of clay and what is not amusing is that there is a whole host of minions that cling to every word they say.

No matter how wrong it is…

I like this place because when someone posts something that is not right, they are corrected quickly but with dignity, or asked to support what they said with fact – it gets a little uncomfortable at times, but I have to say that I do not expect to see a three page thread here about the mystery of receiver extension tubes (now not only are there different diameters, but a recently discovered model is slightly longer than most!!!) That is the sort of stuff that makes me curl up in a fetal position and weep for mankind :rolleyes:

54

Yup, it’s fun. But what did you learn?

55

Shocked I tell you! You mean that someone is using the technical info gained here to make them look good on another forum. :eek: Next you tell me that a guy from the UK can steal a GP from a US company and get millions of dollars from investors. :wink:

C4

56

What I have a hard time with is rude behavior. I talk to people on the internet the same way I would talk to them in real life, with respect. I’m here to seek knowledge from people that have valuable input. Finding those people can be difficult because so many are just passing on what they’ve heard and to the extent that they understand it.

Some of these people create a personality on the internet, and then seem to live their lives through their posts. I’ll never understand this, but god forbid you challenge anything they’ve posted that would cause them to lose face in front of their followers. (Upon reflection, I think Grant understands this far more than I do.)

For example, I commented on something a high post count member of arfcom had said, in a non-gun related thread. This was in an area that I have quite a bit of first hand experience. He was spreading some very poor advice. I tried to enter a discussion about his views and as soon as I did, he just attacked. It didn’t take long to realize that he had no wish to debate me as he simply ignored the points I raised in my posts. Realizing that the discussion was pointless, I stated why I thought he was wrong and I dropped off. Almost a year later I made a comment in another thread and he jumped all over me again because he was still mad that I had challenged him.

Ever since this happened, I’ve been curious about what sort of man he is in real life. Does he treat his co-workers like this? I bet he’s as timid as a mouse.

57

You are correct in saying that the likelihood of any one of us being set upon by a platoon of terrorists packing AKs and suicide vests is fairly remote, and that from a personal survival standpoint people should deal with the statistically more likely threats to life and limb that are an accepted norm in our society…

That being said (and pardon my language) but sh*t happens.

My main worry is not a complete and total failure of the .gov and a resulting mad max future.

Still, I do know how easily a short term breakdown in social order can happen. Order will be restored, but in the meantime during a situation like that you are most likely on your own. In a situation like that having a good rifle and pistol and the means to carry some ammo can go a long way to helping you preserve your life and/or property.

No, I may never need my molle setup outside of a training class and frankly I hope I never do…but if I do…

58

I lurked on a number of forums for a while before I finally joined the 1911 Forum. From there I joined this one and recently joined Tactical Forums. I am intermittently tempted to join 10-8 forums, and while I think I have the credentials to hang out over there, the discussions are so specialized, eventually I would be tempted to say something just because I am a member, not because I really have anything to contribute. To avoid that scenario, I just lurk.
Here’s my breakdown:
Tactics and tips: 10-8
Technical data: M4 Carbine
BS’ing about guns: 1911 forum
???: Tactical Forums

I give a lot of weight to how people carry themselves online. In my experience, BTDT people have different personalities, but at the end of the day want to build a better mouse trap and are genuinely concerned w/ helping people because the stakes are so high. Braying, chest thumping, or hissy fits clue me in that the guy in question is probably a punk w/ disposable income. I will argue up to a point, but w/ those types I just tune out because you can’t help someone who doesn’t want to learn or help you learn.

Here’s an example from the world of print. When I was a teenager, I thought Massad Ayoob was the bee’s nuts. He had lots of guns and seemed to know what he was talking about. What changed my opinion was when some guy wrote a letter to the editor saying in essence that Ayoob was a wannabe and that he sucked. Ayoob’s response was macho swagger “who are you to question my badge and my super gunfighter-ness” (paraphrase). I remember thinking “If I was the ultimate gunfighter and some guy fired off a letter like that, I would be like, whatever dude.” My opinion of him degraded from that point on.

So I think there is some great stuff to be had on the internet, you just have to fine tune your BS meter.

59

My personal feelings on web forums:

They can be exceptionally useful and can help you network with very cool people. This site is an excellent example of that. Rob actually invited me to join not long after I posted on ARFCOM about the Buick shoot we did at Blackwater in May. As a part of that I got to find out that Hawkeye happens to hang out with some folks I have a great deal of respect for, and as a result he and I have exchanged some ideas, and I have gotten some good tips from him.

You can also find a wealth of good information from people with tons of experience or find out stuff you didn’t know. Pat Rogers’ posts here are a good resource and experience from folks like that is invaluable.

One of the really cool things about the forums is the ability to talk to folks on the ground in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. When all you are hearing in the press is how bad our troops suck and how poorly they are performing, it is nice to have access to RELIABLE information from people who actually know what they are talking about and who are risking their neck to do what their country asked of them.

Another huge bonus is training. Coming to M4C exposed me to the Vickers AK course I am going to take in March, and I can’t wait. I am really looking forward to it. Spending a little time on the web forums convinced me to take my first training course, and I was hooked. It has also exposed me to instructors and courses I wouldn’t have known about any other way, like Larry’s AK course. It has also exposed some people that SHOULDN’T be trained with.

Are there bad things about the forums?

You betcha.

One of my pet peeves is watching some 37 year old from New Jersey who couldn’t get into the Marine Corps tell an active officer in the Corps who led men in Iraq and who helped train Iraqi troops that he and his Marines are “failures” and that he is blinded to “the truth” by his “arrogance”…Because somehow a guy watching MSNBC has a better feel for the situation than a guy who was leading Marines into combat in places like Al Anbar…

That gets pretty old.

I also get annoyed with people who dole out helpful hints like using #4 birdshot for home defense because A. it will blow a bad guy in half but won’t over penetrate walls, and B. you don’t have to aim with it…Or people who tell you that a .32acp is a good choice in a primary defensive weapon.

Now some of these folks are just misinformed and like rational human beings when you present them with superior information and logic they change their minds. A certain percentage, however, reacts to the insinuation that they don’t know all the facts like you said something bad about their momma.

Some people are seekers of knowledge. They listen more than they talk and they are always looking for new ideas and information. Then there are those who are pretty sure they have everything figured out. Type 2 people are the bothersome ones that make web forums unpleasant at times…whether they are calling a Marine “failures” because the Marine won’t “admit” that Iraq is hopeless (in other words, won’t agree with THEM), or savaging someone for saying that the 5.7 has offered some pretty sub-standard performance in real life shootings, calling Blackwater contractors “mercs”…

They always seem to show up.

Still, I think the good far outweighs the bad. While web forums aint perfect, they do offer lots of information, networking, and sometimes just plain ol’ entertainment that you just can’t find as easily everywhere else. And as a guy who is forced to spend WAAAAY too much time in front of a computer screen, I am thankful for them.

60

Originally Posted By ju***t:
Oh, and PS I don’t use the safety on my AKs or my ARs. The only necessary safety is the trigger.

Originally Posted By t-s**:
I know this subject has been done to death but IMO the AK is better and the world has chosen. first dont confuse target shooting with Real full auto combat. The AK can still shoot full auto whereas the AR has had that function taken away and replaced with Burst only. Reason? After a few mags in full auto the AR begins to gunk up and short stroke. In the feild you have to clean it like three freakin times a day. What good is a supa-dupa accurate gun if it wont fire?? Second, Most of the complaints that people have about the AK can be fixed or are just personal preference. Its just that with import restrictions most of this stuff never makes it to the US. A left side safety?? The galil has one, problem solved! Now if we could only get those safeties here in the US. Ergononics? That depends on the person, also the AK can take Plastic just like the AR can. Optics? Well they got this little thing called the Optics rail, you place one on your AK and you can put ANY optics on your gun that you can on a AR. Right side charging handle? there is no real proof that left handed charging is superior. Mag hold open? They have it. All yugo mags can open the bolt on the last round. And as far as “tactical reloads” that right there is a problem with the AR. Sometimes people will not place the mag in properly and it will fall out after one shot, With a rockin mag that is not even an issue. And of course the creme de la creme, Accuracy. I will give the AR that advantage BUT the gap is not as great as it seems simply becuase the AK playa haytas are not gving the AK “platform” a fair shake. They’ll compare a 7.62 AK shooting wolf with a AR shooting Lake city. Is that a fair comparison?? Or theyll compare a 20" hbar with a 16" romanian. FAir? i dont think so. AK’s come in inhereintly more accurate cartridges so compare those AK’s to your AR. Also compare with the same barrel length and width.

Two gems of wisdom I have stumbled upon in the past two days elsewhere.

I think these two individuals knocked over a pharmacy and took an entire year’s worth of stupid pills in a single day.

I wonder if these idiots understand the concept of ‘self-parody’? They are operating solidly on the frontiers of ‘Gunkid’ Territory.

What is truly so sad is they don’t have a clue how incredibly stupid the content they posted truly was nor how people are laughing about them behnid their back.

Tragically sad.