I meant to quote, but this goofy forum doesn’t make it obvious how to do it.
My B&T APC9 fits in a messenger bag and I can easily deploy it with the bag slung on me.
That said I just don’t carry it around. I do toss it in my car sometimes, much easier than tossing a rifle in and the messenger bag is very inconspicuous.
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For me, it is… A folded Kuna (or comparable) is <16" long, which means it fits in a backpack or laptop bag or messenger bag or whatever.
That’s a huge advantage in concealability vs. a carbine or shotgun…
It’s not intuitive. First highlight the text you want to quote, and then click the “Reply” button.
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Some have asked “Why?” At one time that would have been my question too, but with the advent of FRT’s (especially for MP5 variants) that slides it over into the “It does have some worth to it after all” category.
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I’ve been kicking around the idea of an FRT in a Macon Armory .45ACP DI AR. That would be the modern day Tommy gun in a lighter package.
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Pistol cartridges allow for so much more training because they are more range friendly, safer against steel targets, and less expensive.
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I had to look that up…
I’m really not interested in rate of fire beyond fast-as-I-can-pull-the-trigger semi-auto.
The advantage, as I see it, is more firepower (bigger mags) and way more accuracy with a brace/stock.
I have rethought this PDW / pistol caliber bag gun theory many times and it comes down to a couple thing for me -
AT first I thought it was stupid, but then I realized there is simply no way to carry even a short rifle in a normal sized 16-18" tall pack. At least not if you want it ready to use. And 18" and smaller is generally what you see people carrying around, not the 20"+ sized “EDC”-my-ass packs. Which means you draw more eyeballs with this massive pack.
It’s also harder to store in or remove from a vehicle, let alone toss around inside the vehicle. A normal sized pack is already a big enough PITA, but at least you have a chance to store it somewhere immediately reachable, and therefore usable.
If anyone watched Jeff Gurwich’s video on his youtube channel (Modern Tactical Shooting) about bailout bags, it can be instantly understood how the bailout bag and PDW concept marry together quite easily, becoming basically the same thing.
Additionally, the ability to quickly put the PDW away after use, OR at least sufficiently conceal temporarily is also of import and again, something not easily done even with SBRs OR standard SBR-sized SMGs. Unless you want to go full Neo in your everyday dress. haha
The second key is that the shoulder point of contact whether it be a stock or brace, is invaluable. In the current era where there has come to be a near-obsession with the perfecting of the EDC pistol (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and then a big jump to a rifle caliber beyond that, the in-between of just being able to hit stuff better at average pistol caliber ranges has been forgotten.
Any small hand weapon with some way to shoulder DOES that, even if shooting one-handed, it’s still better than shooting a handgun one-handed. And if you can get both hands on it…even better. Add a red dot and you’re really cooking.
Confidence in making accurate shots in potentially crowded, fast-moving, multi-target environments is very much THE main asset these sort of things bring to the table.
Of course if possible to have a larger mag, that doesn’t hurt either as everyone is more than familiar with the concept of the fight likely being decided within the first mag or two, of which whatever is in the gun may be all you have the time or ability to fight with. Especially if the EDC of choice is some sort of micro-compact.
This does raise storage issue questions, especially if fast ready-deployment is desired, BUT mostly can be mitigated by alternate magazine sizes.
Aside from size/weight, the only real downside is any PDW worth it’s salt to actually provide an upgrade over a mere handgun, must be carried off-body.
But the way I see it, this is not a day-to-day capability enhancement - I’m not going to the dumpster tomorrow with this thing. It’s a level 2 upgrade response to events that dictate I may need it more than not, yet are in a time-space or physical space where going level 3 to rifles and overt kit is not possible (or desired). Much the same a a concealable vest/PC.
Anyway, that’s my theory on it.
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Where’s @YoniMagav when you need him
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I totally agree, Jellybean.
You mention OAL of a potential PDW; I have a FoldAR that is just over 17" long folded in half. It has a 16" barrel so once put into action it would essentially be a “carbine”. It will fit into a smaller, not-so-obvious backpack.
The fact that those guys want $700 for a lower is just hilarious. But that’s an interesting idea for the folding upper. Reminds me a lot of the S&W FPC folding PCC they came out with some time back.
That being said, I’m still not 100% on something like that for the same reason I didn’t run out and get the S&W version.
IMO, folding the whole gun in half sideways like that makes it a very thick package. This still impacts the size of the bag, in that, it changes the storage space within it fairly significantly. There’s now a large triangular lump in the middle interior of it.
This is not as easy to solve as you’re not simply folding a stock/brace, and therefore can use something very thin to mitigate (like a Sig Spear-style skeletonized aluminum/plastic or such), it’s the whole half an upper.
So while it solves the length issues, it’s not quite there on the thicccness issue, IE, if you carry other things it will still be a ‘large’ pack.
Personally I would also still be springing for the 10.5 or 12.5 upper anyway, or even invest (ugh) in .300Blk and get the 9", as IMO, another key requirement for an effective PDW is the ability to deploy and use it within whatever vehicle you are in, and maneuvering a fullsize 16" carbine in a vehicle is already kind of a PITA, let alone trying to deploy one from a bag on your lap, or the seat beside you. Especially if there are other people in the car.
I had an 11.5 with a folding stock adapter once upon a time, and that was about as much as I cared to deal with ‘deployment issues’ with inside the vehicle.
I found, for me at least, if going to a full 16" I’d rather pre-deploy it to between my legs or between the seat and center console next to me, with a blanket or some trash thrown over it so it’s a little less immediately obvious, and where it could be easily grabbed on my way OUT of the vehicle.
Even then, while it CAN be done, maneuvering a full-length rifle around inside a vehicle without buttstroking yourself, the person next to you, or bonking into a window (which wouldn’t matter fer realz, but still, it’s a potential deployment impediment) is much more difficult compared to a hyper-compact weapon.
If you are in the back seat, that $#!+ becomes even more impossible.
And this was mainly in a fullsize SUV - in a smaller sedan or other compact car it gets even more ridiculous.
All that being said…
That’s by far the best ‘breakdown’ method I’ve seen for a rifle, and I could be potentially be tempted by it just to keep a rifle caliber capability.
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I’ve even found my AP5-P w/folding brace & optic to be the maximum limit for size and over the limit with a 15rd in it & 3 spare 30’s.
Another one i used to have that was good for size but too heavy was a short barreled Uzi & folding stock.
Now, my favorite is my VZ61 with optic & folding brace. Yea, it’s .32 but that’s more powerfull & reliable than .22lr at least. Will still tag somebody if necessary.
I just bought the upper, no way was I shelling out for a complete gun at those prices. Another point (if you’re one who gives a damn about it) is that cleaning is super easy; you can access the inside front of the upper without trying to dig your pinky into it the regular way and the barrel is right there—open—to be brushed and swabbed.
I divested of 300BO a few years back and, while it isn’t a bad idea for a PDW, I’m not re-diving into it. I could buy one of their shorter uppers and put it on an SBR lower, but it’d be in 5.56.
Now you might ask about loss of zero…I just mounted my Aimpoint T2 on the furthest rearward spot on the part that folds with the barrel, not back further on the upper like I usually do. That way the RDS is always in alignment with the barrel so no fretting over loss of zero.
I still think an MP5 clone with a collapsible brace/stock and a FRT would be an awesome little package for a PDW.
Stupid question: Why an MP5 clone?
The Turkish clones all seem to be iffy when it comes to quality control and reliability — it’s not hard to find stories of them failing on the errornet.
Why not a CZ Skorpion or Springfield/HS Kuna?
The first seems to have become as much a “standard” platform as the MP5, and the second has at least some of the advantages of the roller-delayed system…
Because I have one already (main reason) so why not “upgrade” to the PDW I was hypothesizing about. No, mine isn’t a genuine HK, it’s a Turkish clone.
The CZ and Springfield look interesting, but I’m not sure an FRT/Super Safety has been made for them yet (haven’t Googled it).
I had a Turkish AP5, i have two buddies with same, and i have a Turkish AP5-P.
All fine. Need a little break-in. The Turkish mags are 99.9% with ball but iffy with JHP, test throughly. HK mags 100% with everything reasonable. (Ammo like Lehigh copper wasn’t reliable)
I’m not sure I’ll keep mine until my end unless i can improve the trigger without losing reliability. It’s not that it’s a bad example, it’s just the standard poor trigger HK’s this design has. Suggestions?
There are multiple, very expensive setups that allow you to use an AR trigger in the MP5 and clones.
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I’ll look into that, thanks.
I do like the grip just fine. I have the Magpul extended / ambi selector in it.
I simply can’t caliber-cope myself into less than 9MM for a serious-use gun.
The VZ’s are cool, and the form factor is nice, but at that point I’d just as soon look for a chassis for a handgun. Probably end up wit a longer barrel too, IIRC.
I have heard well sourced rumors that Flux is working on a new chassis system that will be for more brands than just Sig, but given it’s Flux, God only knows what century they will eventually release it, or how many moon rocks I’ll have to find to afford one. haha
I’d LOVE a Raider, but no way no how I’m getting involved with the 320 drama.
But IMO, that’s the path to what I’d call the “modernized VZ”.
For a “fullsize” SMG type, yeah the MP5-K is pretty solid contender, or others within that same size.
However, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that for a pistol-caliber PDW, the Mag-in-grip form factor is the only way.
And there are barely any of those on market, which is a shame.
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