The Misunderstood By .40 S&W Massad Ayoob

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
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An interesting discussion on the .40 via ‘Ol Yaoob.

In this video, we take a closer look at the .40 S&W — a cartridge that was once dominant in law enforcement and defensive use, but has since become the subject of heavy criticism and debate. The .40 S&W rose to prominence for specific reasons rooted in real-world performance, yet over time it has been labeled as outdated, unnecessary, or overly harsh in recoil. This discussion examines why that perception developed, what the cartridge was designed to accomplish, and whether the criticism is entirely fair. We break down the historical context, practical trade-offs, and where the .40 S&W still makes sense today.

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Good video. I am still a fan of the .40 but honestly rarely shoot one these days. I took three handgun classes at Gunsite (250*2 and 350) with my G23-4 and never felt the least bit challenged. I even won a couple of the daily challenges.

I had my G23 slide milled and now it wears a red dot, and I shoot it pretty well. It’s my first choice when I head out to the boonies where I may encounter hogs.

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I had a G22 Gen 4 LE trade milled since the slide was ugly anyway. It’s neat and I love it, but it doesn’t shoot as smooth as my Gen 5 G22s or my G35 gen 4s. There’s just a little more recoil snap on the pre Gen 5 G22s.

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I was never a fan of the .40 myself, generally viewing it a solution in search of a problem, but I enjoyed hearing the deep dive history of the rnd regardless.

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I love 40. 9mm is a snooze for me. 45 lacks a comfortable velocity. 10mm frames are too big for my hand.

I’d love to have a magic wand to substitute the 40 cal into all of the failure to stops in the body cam footage we get now days. Would 40 cal perform better? I think it would, but who knows?

I can say for sure that 9mm is pathetic. Excusing the shot placement factor and just high level observation on a LOT of videos, I’d guess estimate that in over 80% body cam police shoots 9mm does not stop the threat effectively and requires a follow up volley of fire. One video of a guy in a park required a third volley to get him to stop reaching for the knife, and this was at contact distance.

But is 40 any better? Is 357 Sig any better? Some Jello shooters shot the same bullet in 9mm and 357 sig and the jello looked the same. (penetration/cavity). I don’t put too much faith in the jello results. I prefer quantifiable stuff like power factor and muzzle energy.

I also don’t count fatality rates because 9mm is capable of killing bad guys, but WHEN? You can’t wait for a bleed out from a guy who is still attacking. Threat stoppage is all that matters. Even if the criminal survives the shooting.

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I like giving .45 acp a little velocity help with 4.5 in + barrels and +P loads.
If the barrel is shorter +p 200 or 185 gr loads.

I prefer .45 / 10mm size grip frames. (M&P 2.0)

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9mm is cheaper, Police don’t get much training and some can barely pass quals. That’s why agencies prefer 9x19.

.40 is a more capable cartridge. So is .357 sig, .38 Super, .45 acp, and 10mm.

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What matters is stopping the threat fast.

9mm is the caliber used by most LE departments and the one with more use cases (videos).

Is 40 better? Is 357sig better? 45acp? I would like to see studies on real life examples for those calibers.

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Me too. I can’t see how 9mm could hang with a larger caliber. I just can’t. The new “magic” bullet technology simply can’t bypass the laws of physics. More mass going as fast or faster can’t be equal.

I honestly think the 9mm push is another way to weaken our country’s LE. It’s the easy/lazy button which makes is a simple sell to bureaucrats in Agencies.

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If anyone can speak to the issue of pistol calibers used to put goblins down, it’s that man, director of FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility:

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Can any sum this up? I am not watching a 30 min video that could be summed up in 3 minutes

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147g 9mm in modern JHP via known legacy brands (Federal, Speer, etc) LE focused offerings is the best overall choice.

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Thanks will, Good to know, that’s what I keep in my PCC and home defense pistol.

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Now it’s down to training and mindset. :saluting_face:

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I have plenty of training for both, thankfully. It help when you own your own range and can make any scenario you want.

I am not a caliber snob at all. They all suck compared to a rifle. But having a slide locked back on you twice, when you really needed it, Makes me go 9mm. 19+1 is a comfy number for me.

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How many rounds was that? How many good hits? Circumstances?

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And Scott (FBI guy) thinks with today’s technology in this projectile specification the outcome of the 1986 shooting would have been different. It was a projectile issue, not caliber gun or shooter issue.

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So a .32 acp and up FMJ or flat-nose probably would have been better by penetrating enough?

Or a 9mm 124 gr XTP, which was available at the time. (I think…)

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You know when you can take a 110+ year old pistol and improve the ammo and significantly make it a much more viable and leathal again, you kind of have to take a step back and wonder.

Are we chasing the wrong thing here?

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The FBLIE blamed it on the wrong projectile years ago, using the Winchester Silvertip as a scapegoat and then went to the 10mm light. In reality it was bad tactics and the fact that they were up against two criminals who were trained and who would not quit. Platt was bleeding to death the whole time and did most of his killing/wounding with a Mini-14, which outclassed the pistols used by the agents.

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