I have. I train BJJ and Muay Thai with plenty of people with aggressive tats. Most are nice guys. All have made educational and professional decisions that limit their opportunities.
I forgot my buddy Shane.
He is in his 20’s.
He has tats up his neck and flames down his arms. He has “gauges” in his ears. He shaves his head bald and wears a very long fumanchu.
He is smart and pretty much is the go to guy on one of the lines that makes a very complicated product, he knows it intimately.
He has been suggested multiple times that he should be made the team leader on the line. However, he has a bad attitude with authority figures. He doesn’t take direction well and he isn’t adaptable. Once you get him out of his comfort zone, he starts to act out and violate workplace rules like cussing and throwing things.
He pretty much lives up to my previous experience unfortunately.
Still a good friend of mine and I have tried to coach him to so he could get a promotion. I just doesn’t stick. He is Shane.
alright buddy. you’ve dodged the question and come back with the same rhetoric enough for me to get that you don’t want to put into words that you don’t really want to face.
couple of points i’d like to cover though. It’s not just 20 somethings that are into body modification. It has been going on for A LOT longer than that. I know plenty of WWII vets, korean conflict, and vietnam war vets that have visible tats and piercings.
Point b) society will eventually change. we MUST. if not we will live a life of hypocrisy. When I say that i’m talking about us saying one thing and doing something else. We tell our kids all the time that we should not discriminate against ANYONE, but yet we do it ourselves. We tell our kids that they can be anything they want to be, and then we shut the door on them because they get their ears pierced, or inject ink into their arms, or refuse to clean shave. We tell them that they can make a difference, when what we should be telling them is that when they get older, grow up and join the work force that we want them to be mindless drones that have to conform to what “the man says” we should do/look like.
don’t get me wrong. i’m not the spare the rod/spoil the kid type. My kids toe the line on most things. however I do allow them to be individuals and allow them to have some sort of self expression (no none of them have piercings, except my little girl who has her ears pierced). And they won’t have them until they are old enough to understand the ins and outs of our society.
This whole thread is meant to get people thinking. obviously some folks just can’t be reached.
okay, so throwing things is definitely not acceptable. I do take exception to swearing, because i do it as well. People just need to grow thicker skin in regards to that. They say swearing is for the uneducated, and i’m fine with that. they can think that all they want. i’ve actually been term’ed due to my swearing… once. I was one of the top performers in my area. their loss not mine.
on the other side of that, you said he was a great worker. He’s just not a leader. That’s really his choice. if he is performing fine where he is, let him do his thing. Some people are meant to lead… some people are meant to be the worker bees.
Wrong. Most legal gun owners that I have encountered are not violent. However, most people with aggressive tats and piercings that I have encountered do fail to meet basic performance standards to work in a professional environment. Pattern recognition only works for an established pattern. There is no pattern for legal gun owners being more violent than non-gun owners.
As for your second invalid analogy, there is a big difference between race and behaviors. You must have missed that point being made in post #11 on page 1 of this thread.
again. you are basing individual performance off of the actions of others. sir, you are not willing to give the individual a chance due to the actions of others. It validates my second analogy based upon bias to a certain group (regardless of whether it’s ethnic, sexual, religious or cultural). You are right that there is a difference between race and behaviors, but there is NOT a difference in terms of bias. Your either bias or your not. The four categories listed above are federal standards upon which you CANNOT legally discriminate.
what if an African tribal member decided to immigrate to the US, and wanted a job in big business. Would you discriminate against him then?
Some where on the first page I made reference to folks not hiring muslims. muslims wear a beard as a part of their faith (they aren’t the only ones, but they are the most prominent). You legally cannot discriminate against them for having their beards as a religious practice, so would you discriminate against someone that wasn’t a muslim that has a beard. This was part of my OP if you’ll read back.
Do you ascribe to the belief that we shouldn’t discriminate against people who violate other societal norms?
What about older men dating/marrying young girls? In some societies that is the norm. It isn’t in Western societies though. Most people consider men who are attracted to a 13 year old a pedo.
What about walking around nude in public?
Eating human flesh? A lot of starving people could be fed and we are burying protein in the ground.
Eating pork? Some societies consider this taboo. I do it all the time, heck I prefer pork to chicken.
While some of the things I posted are a little more extreme than what you are talking about, they are all societal values that are particular to Western European culture that aren’t really the norm in other cultures. So should we not discriminate?
Violating societal norms will cause adverse reactions to members of that society even though those violations could be considered a norm in other societies.
Still waiting for this “question” to be answered or addressed
Oh, I see your pattern now. Employers need to grow thicker skin to accommodate your swearing, or allow you to flex your individuality by growing a foo man chu. In other words, everybody else must change to conform to your preferences. If we don’t conform to accept your behavior, then it is our loss. Good luck with that.
I find it ironic that this line of thinking is very prevalent in the tat/piercing crowd. That is the EXACT attitude that employers can’t stand because it undermines a team. I guess you have no idea how many customers that your foul mouth may have cost your employer. Then again, I guess the customers need to grow thicker skin too.
BTW, I doubt that anyone on this forum is telling their kids not to discriminate against “anyone.” I’d hope that my fellow members teach their kids not to discriminate based on race and certain other non-behavioral characteristics. However, you can damn well count on me teaching my kid to discriminate based on patterns of behavior, and choosing to disfigure your body is a behavior. I call that survival instinct and judgement.
guess you’ll keep waiting. that question was outside the parameters of this thread, and quite ridiculous. I think you know that.
ETA: actually I will. I do not condone racism/discrimination. my adult daughter (she’s 2 atm) will be allowed to date whomever she likes. I will always love her, and I would go above and beyond to change her mind/mindset. If she is still a minor child then no she would not be allowed to leave with a person like that, due to a safety issue.
back to topic. This thread is about the “professional” bias/discrimination of people who have chosen to alter their physical appearance. not who i will and who I will not allow my daughter to date. there is a HUGE difference between whether or not I would allow a tattoo’ed person work for me and whether or not I would allow my daughter to attend a clan bake where she would most likely be strung up and/or otherwise physically harmed.
I have tried to keep this thread civil and stimulate your thought processes. The post in which this answer is in response to was a douchebag of a question and did not belong in the thread.
There is a huge difference in the vet with a Navy or other tattoo and the guy with sleeves and gauges. Come on now.
Some people’s definition of society changing means most of us have to lower our standards.
You might be a wonderful person with all your tattoos and your nose and eyebrows full of metal…who knows? That said…you are not going to be employed by me with those looks. I would not have gotten hired when I was younger, with those looks, either.
Doesn’t anyone’s parents teach their kids this stuff about appearance anymore or do they just think anything goes as junior runs around looking like someone on MTV or out of a Mad Max movie?
-brickboy240
Yes
What about older men dating/marrying young girls? In some societies that is the norm. It isn’t in Western societies though. Most people consider men who are attracted to a 13 year old a pedo.
Actually that’s illegal, so no I do not agree with/support such actions.
What about walking around nude in public?
If it’s legal in the area, then sure. actually it could be an attractant for a business. it’s been done before
Eating human flesh? A lot of starving people could be fed and we are burying protein in the ground.
That is a private matter, and cannot be asked about / punished for not answering kind of question
Eating pork? Some societies consider this taboo. I do it all the time, heck I prefer pork to chicken.
I love bacon. I cannot discriminate against someone for eating or not eating it however. not a question that is going to come up during an interview
While some of the things I posted are a little more extreme than what you are talking about, they are all societal values that are particular to Western European culture that aren’t really the norm in other cultures. So should we not discriminate?
no we shouldn’t
Don’t hold your breath.
that’s not what i’m saying at all. In that ONE instance, yes, it was their loss. Their turn over has gone through the roof in the last two years since I was there (i never called out, and was always 15 minutes early for my shift). The quality of people that have come and gone is substantially worse, and they have suffered for it.
you can raise your kids however you wish to raise them. Once they are grown and moved out, should they choose to alter their bodies, will you cast them out of your lives and show them as much distaste/disdain as you show the rest of those members of society?
If you’ll read up a few posts you’ll see where I mentioned that my kids won’t be getting piercings until they realize the consequences of doing so. So i’m with you on that to a certain point. Ill expound to say that My kids are taught to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until such time as that doubt is given. If they meet a “preppy kid” that isn’t worth salt, then it will be their choice to walk away. If they meet a “pierced kid” and he turns out to be someone that teaches them useful traits (like good work ethic, attendance, how to do something) then good on them for giving that kid the benefit of the doubt.
What I was trying to show is that we, every day and even as part of our very laws, have restrictions on behavior and appearance that are not “universal” across all cultures and as such you and I are “discriminating” by choosing to follow those norms just as I might be “discriminating” by being suspect of someone who is violating other social norms as part of a hiring process.
*Not that I am equating body modification to being a pedo or a flasher.
The OP was not about sleeves and gauges. The Op was about visible tats and piercings.
Doesn’t anyone’s parents teach their kids this stuff about appearance anymore or do they just think anything goes as junior runs around looking like someone on MTV or out of a Mad Max movie?
-brickboy240
while I’ve stated again and again that MY kids will be forced to wait; obviously there are A LOT of people that aren’t teaching their kids to wait.
what i’m trying to do here is to get you folks to open up to them, and talk to them for who they are, not as who they are presumed to be. Do not base your bias off the actions of a “group” but to speak to them and look for the potential of an INDIVIDUAL
I hope that you do realize that you and I are on the same page. right?
Agreed. While my children are being raised in a certain way and I am teaching them certain lessons and values, I am also telling them to fly under the radar. While I am raising them to look beyond the superficial, to look instead at the character of a person and the content of their heart, I am also telling them that the world doesn’t work that way. So they are understanding that there is a time and place for everything and I warn them of being too foot lose and fancy free in the work place or public. Basically they need to learn to use discretion and understand their audience before making their opinions known.
from another board:
Calico,
Thank you for sharing this. It made me really think about the “why’s” of our behavior and personal philosophy when it comes to the choice of conformity vs. individualism.
Some questions and thoughts came to mind:
Is their a true correlation in our current society between being a “good person/successful person” and our behavior when it comes to appearances and perceptions?
Do most people define a “good person” as a “successful person”?
Can “expected behavior” be used as “camouflage” to blend in and get you access or approval to achieve a “bigger goal”?
I am not qualified in anyway to give psychological/clinical behavior advice, however, here is what I concluded for my current personal life (this may change as I become older). Maybe some of you who are more qualified (such as farranger) may be able to add constructive input/advice to Calico’s OP.
Good person = acceptable behavior:
It seems that communities (all over the world) have always developed parameters of what a good person looks like (perception) and these parameters seem to have curtain behavior patterns attributed with them. “Good people” dress accordingly to what makes everyone around them feel comfortable. “Good people” bring up only politically correct topics of conversation, again to the “comfort of others”. “Good people” have goals/dreams common and acceptable to others in their community. I remember that as a kid, my father told be that if I study and work hard, I can be anything I want. As I became a teenager going to a private high school, then a university student and ultimately a business owner, his guidance changed to: “who do you think you are? Do you think you are better that us, you want to be a “haole”?” (obviously he had/has some issues - not worth going into). Apparently, my behavior of going to a primarily white private high school and then the U of Arizona was not “acceptable” as a good person in his mind. I also have family members that think that since I am a business owner, a “good person” who owns a business should always “help out financially since I MUST be rich”. When I advise them on how they can do it themselves, I get the lecture that I am not a good person by not sharing my “success with my ohana”. For now, I try very hard to surround myself with people that share similar goals and dreams (as well as behavior), as I do not have the maturity and patience to successfully live around “the others” without being angry and bitter. As a side note, although I never met him before, James used to scare the shit out of me from an appearance point of view. I then watched his videos regularly, especially the ones about him not being a racist and reviewing Kayla’s EDC bag/purse. James, please do not think I am “softening you”, but my perception I get from the videos is that you can be accurate, articulate, a loving father and husband, thus a good person and still “look like the bad-ass that you are”.“Good person” = “sucessful person”:
I guess as long as we are not talking about successful lawyers (just a joke for you lawyers on the forum - trying to be funny) and Fortune 500 CEOs (joke again), it seems that “good” and “successful” tend to go hand in hand it the courtroom of public opinion. I guess this is one of the primary reasons people AND businesses put so much pressure on appearance and behavior. The ironic part is that many consumers/customers place these parameters on their vendors. If you had a choice of investing lets say $10k with someone and you have the choice of a person in shorts, flip-lops and smelled like they just finished working out, or someone who has a tie on and good personal hygiene, who would you lean towards? What would be the consensus of 100 random people off the street? Most of my business customers are healthcare entities and doctors. I have a strict uniform code for my employees. Why? It is not primarily for marketing purposes mind you. It is because my customers desire it. They want us to create a standardized look so they can recognize my team when we are on site, it gives them a perception of “our success” and “competence”. I know my team would rather work in jeans and a tee shirt and so would I; we would just be perceived as being less successful and question if I am running a business with “good people” maybe because I “cannot” get them to dress appropriately. I consider James (thank you again, if you don’t mind me using you in another example) a very successful person (his school attendance track record and personal CV speaks for itself), even though some shallow person who judges on appearances may disagree. Shouldn’t he then, based on typical community standards, be a “good person”? But he has “tattoos and shaves his head and uses scary bad words”, but he is still a good person based on his success, right? See, James is a person communities sometimes hate because he is willing to be an individual and is still successful which in their eye must equal to being a good person (thus breaks their definition of a good and acceptable person). We in this forum community accept the way he looks and his colorful metaphors, but not because we know when we take his classes his focus is ultimately on us, our safety, our skill improvement, and hopefully develop long term friendships and camaraderie with a bunch of like-minded people (which I believe to be true). We accept him because he accepts us, wherever we come from at what ever level we are at; and wants to enthusiastically share his time, energy, knowledge, etc… with us so we can be better at something we want. This is why he is a good guy and why he is successful.Behavior/appearances being used in guerrilla tactics:
Historical precedence shows that sometimes the best way to get what you what in the long run is to conform in the beginning to earn the trust and acceptance of influential people around you, i.e. “when in Rome”. Note that the conformation is simply a “perception to others” and not a personal acceptance that the community standards are correct (but no one else needs to know that you are not drinking the kool-aid). We as individuals have the potential to change our communities. Just because it is possible, however, doesn’t automatically mean that it is probable. Many times it is much easier to “strategically” blend in and be accepted so that you can rise to a higher level of influence and success (from a business/financial point of view). It is much easier to help your family and ultimately others if you have the financial resources to do so (not that money is everything - so do not interpret this as an “all or nothing” statement). Let’s say that you worked hard (i.e. work smart) over the years, accumulated some wealth and had more than enough to cover all of your family’s needs. Couldn’t you now have the resources to do some other things that help your community or causes that you believe in? I think it would be cool, for example, to see my business grow to a size one day where I could scholarship deserving folks to the “Fighting Pistol” class. For now I am just working on scholarshipping myself, but I will continue to dream about supporting causes I believe in (paid this year’s NRA dues - have you?).
So I have convinced you that there is a good reason that people discriminate against people who violate societal norms?