Yes…you SHOULD judge a book by its cover. If a person shows outwardly that they are dressing nicely for the job, they have no tattoos and piercings and have conservative dress…they take their job seriously. Chances are good that this person WILL show up on time, do a good job and not be fired in 6 months for doing something wrong.
The person that dresses professionally also places MORE importance on his appearance to his employer and clients and LESS importance on how he looks to his beer buddies. As an employer…THAT is more important than expressing one’s creativity.
Also, most of the time…if someone looks scroungy…they ARE scroungy. There are exceptions but again…they are so rare it is not worth mentioning.
On the “follower/leader” issue. There are times to LEAD and times to FOLLOW. If you raise your children to think for themselves and have common sense…they will know when to follow and when to lead. There are times when either one is totally appropriate and inappropriate.
The idea of “being yourself” might tie back into the concept of knowing when to lead and when to follow. I don’t know.
No, it’s called pattern recognition. It is part of our survival mechanisms. Good luck overcoming 1 million years of natural selection with 20 years of feel-good idealism.
BTW, many of us encounter the aggressive tats / piercings crowd on a daily basis. The vast majority were underachievers long before joining the Janeane Garofalo fan club. The facepaint is a convienant crutch to rationalize why “the man” keeps them down. For example, this guy told me that he has no idea why he can’t get a job…
Yes, that actually says, “Got Beer” on his forehead.
Both leadership and expressions of individuality can be accomplished without the use of props. I like Tats, I don’t mind piercings. I do however hate excess. Covering yourself in tats and poking holes in your face are not expressions of individuality or leadership. They are props.
The desire to differentiate ourselves from our parents and peers is a normal human development process. Everyone goes through it. Some people grow long hair, wear bell bottom pants, listen to that damned rock and roll music… After a while most people realize that they don’t need the props to be different and that they can be part of the herd AND be an individual at the same time. Unfortunately people these days seem to embrace destructive modes of self differentiation that may not be erasable. Grow a mowhak and paint it pink and blue. No problem. When you grow up you can get a different hair cut. Wear bell bottoms or trash pants below your ass crack. Fine when you grow up you can buy pants that fit. Poke holes in your face, inject ink into your skin. Not so easy to change once you grow up.
Never judge a book by its cover applies to people who have no choice in their cover. Minorities don’t choose to be minorities and as such we shouldn’t hold that against them. Same for women or men depending on the situation. It doesn’t apply to someone who knowingly makes poor choices. And yes poking holes in your face given today’s societal norms is a poor choice. It’s not an expression of individuality. Maybe is 100 years people who don’t have tats or piercings will be the outliers and then their choice will be the poor one. However we are not there.
I am confusing nothing. I know they are different. I also know keeping good hygiene is an expected societal norm.
Edit. Perhaps you will better understand this as a question.
Would you hire someone who has a problem with the societal norm of having good hygiene, and does not wash or in any way groom himself for several years, to work at your front desk greeting and dealing with customers and not in any way “discriminate” against them just because they rejected the societal norm of regular bathing and grooming?
very well spoken. The only part that i’d like to point out is your “poor choice” comment. a “poor choice” as far as appearances go is completely relative. It’s not clear cut like… let’s say murder.
At this point I’m going to give a little back ground on myself. I’ve got 13 years work experiences. Most of it is retail, tried to go into the army (got medically chaptered during boot for a EPTS condition that i lied about), and now work in emergency medicine. I did not get my first tat till I was 30 years old, and only have two visible ones. I sport a beard and no piercings.
that being said. I’ve worked with customers most of my adult life. I have seen their reactions to people with odd peircings or “scary facial hair.” One of my best sales reps used to get the compliment of “That wierd looking fellow over there was very helpful and friendly” when I would hit up my customers before they left our store.
This whole thread is/was based on recent decisions at my current employer and some stuff I have been thinking about with my kids lately. So far this discussion has been AWESOME. and i would encourage everyone to keep it going.
no. and I will state very clearly why. Poor Hygiene can and often will lead to contagious disease. Foul odors can induce nausea, vomitting (in extreme cases) and can cause syncopal episodes (again in extreme cases). Thus would not be conducive for ANY work environment. It is not so much a “appearance” issue as it is a HEALTH issue.
Also…isn’t it pretty obvious to most younger people that tons of tattoos and piercings and wild clothing choices is NOT COOL in professional American business circles? Places like corporate offices, the financial industry and other professional office environments?
This small group is expecting an entire industry to change to THEIR choices…how realistic is that? How disrespectful is that?
Younger people wanting corporate jobs and professional jobs will recognize how those industries operate and learn to be part of those environments or they will not be hired.
Again…who does not know this? Any younger people that did not get this basic bit of common sense…well…I don’t think they deserve to work in professional places…do you?
If you cannot make better choices and decisions on your appearance…why should I trust you to make good decisions with my insurance needs, investments or my legal needs?
Nope. I have never personally employed one and I won’t either. This is based on years of experience with friends in the music/art industry in my college years. That is where I developed my opinions on the information that I presented. I was very much into the art/music/interpretive dance scenes in college. I was fascinated by their talent because I have none.
They were all very creative, very individual, but terrible workers. After college, I actually got one hired at a factory I worked in as a line worker (because he had talent, but no Skilz), I put my good name on the line for him to help him out since he had just married one of my best friends and they needed the money. I won’t make that mistake again.
When my cousin was a young man, he wanted to be an airline pilot more than anything. He was technically competent, had all the hours and education. This was the early/mid 80’s.
When he had his first airline interview, my dad called and gave him this piece of advice: “Get a GOOD haircut, shave off your moustache and wear the best suit you have”.
Like it or not, he did it because he wanted that job. He got it. Still flies for Delta. He tells my Dad that was some of the best advice he ever got.
You may not like it, but there are certain norms that are preferred by society, so you have to find balance with what your personal choices may be vs. what is expected by those that can help you get ahead in life. You still make the choice, but you also live with the consequences of your choice.
If you want to live a free-wheeling, “alternate lifestyle”, don’t join the military expecting them to accomodate you…
again. they are poor choices to YOU. Who are you to tell someone that what they can do with their bodies? I’m not arguing with you, i’m just trying to make you justify your statements; without looking like a judgmental person. There are thousands of very very smart individuals that live “an alternative lifestyle”. These people are very capable at what they do for a living, but are often discriminated against (by people like you) for no apparent reason other than the fact that they have altered their body for some reason.
It’s not disrespectful in any way, to any corporation. They have done no harm to any corporation nor individual (including themselves, as the actual physical harm heals in a very short period of time, and is usually not present when these people come in for interviews).
i’ll ask you the same question i’ve asked the others in this thread. Have you employed, worked with, or even know anyone from the discussed subculture?
not in the ways i’m discussing. We don’t have a very big tattoo/piercing culture down here (not that we transport anyways). most of what we see is people living in squaller with scabees, the herp derp and the other host of nasty people diseases. that and MO pt’s. lots of chicken heads. The pd probably sees the other side (much like your photo)
I know how getting burned can and will influence a decision. I have to ask though. since then have you spent time (not like hanging out, but just talking to) other people of that subculture?
I never said you should not be able to go get pierced and tatted all up. I don’t care. Go do whatever makes you happy…seriously.
I also did not make up the “rules” in professional American business circles. I just know that if I want to work here…those things will limit how and where I go.
I don’t have the time to deal with what could be (like the tatted and pierced person applying might be wonderful) and I have to deal with what is (my clients will not respond well to this person’s appearance). We have a business to run and don’t have time for personal appearance experiments, sorry. this is the oil biz…not Rolling Stone Magazine or the music business. LOL
Sorry but that is just how it goes.
Don’t like it? Don’t apply here. This is America and you are free to look as you wish and work wherever you want.
Again…this is common knowledge. You are asking an entire industry and generations to change to YOUR way of doing things. Well…since I am the one with my name on the business charter and I pay the bills and taxes and assume the risk of being part owner…sorry…that trumps your wishes for alternative appearance.
Judgmental? Maybe but its my business and if your appearance is more important to you than fitting in to an industry you know is not cool with that…you are a child and I don’t need children working for me…sorry. There is too much at risk to hire people that cannot make better decisions or have better priorities.
Surprise, the corporate world is not always fair or just and the competition out here is fierce. Be a part of it or move on to other work places…that is how it goes.
Nobody is telling them what to do with their bodies. They are free to get as many tats and piercings as they want, and I’m free to choose someone else to represent my company. That is because experience shows that there many more fools with aggressive tats/piercings than quality workers.
I get what your saying. Your business, your choices. BUT indulge me for a minute and come out of your shell.
you’ve yet to answer the question though. Have you employed/worked with/personally know anyone that either a)has visible tats, b)has peircings (regardless of how extreme or not), c) has facial hair or d) has all three?
you say your in the oil business. it’s pretty common knowledge that even the manual labor gets paid big money in oil companies. Would you not even hire a skilled laborer that had any or all of the above mentioned? why or why not? other than personal bias…
so your basing your opinion, not on the individual worker, but on the actions of others who share similarities to the worker.
so that’s like the libtards saying that everyone on this board is a mass murder because we own guns, and the most recent mass murders were commited by criminals using firearms? right?
or using a 1950s reference; you won’t hire a black person because the “race is generally lazy”?
A couple of them are living in New York right now. Still into the scene. Most of their body modifications are now gone or hidden. I think that age and time took some of the “cool” out of it.
There is one guy that I work with that is supposed to be an “engineer” who has tats and a tongue ring and earrings and I bet an eyebrow ring (he doesn’t wear it at work). Unfortunately he is reinforcing my view point…:mad:
I don’t have a problem with people doing whatever they want to do with their bodies but people need to understand that social and societal mores develop over centuries and generally do so for good reasons. It will take centuries for those things to change (and usually only WITH good reason) and no matter how smart or good you are, choosing to ignore such norms will always cause people to be suspicious because those norms are the framework of how people order their lives.
Most people want to fit into society, it is how we are hardwired. People who “self ostracize” are going to be viewed negatively no matter how benign their actions that is just how societies work.
It is both our greatest and worst feature.
It allows us to build rocket ships to go to the moon but also to limit freedom of expression/thought/actions.
You might get to work out in the warehouse with tats and piercings but not sitting up front in the office or in an capacity where the big paying clients will see you.
If you do not like the rules…work somewhere else or start your own company and hire only strangely dressed people and see how far it goes. Nobody is stopping you from doing that, you know.
Again…who does not know this stuff? Parents are really not preparing their 20-somethings for the real working world…I see this every day.
