Before we start, I do not want to get into the merits of doing Tac Reloads VS Emergency reload (save that for another discussion).
Question: Are Reloads with Retention better than Tactical Reloads?
For those that do not know the difference, here is a quick down and dirty explanation:
Tactical Reloads:
Shooter first grabs new (fully loaded) mag.
Then, while holding the new mag in their offhand, acquires the mag that is in the weapon.
Shooter releases the mag that is in the weapon and inserts the new mag and retains the partially spent mag (dump pouch, etc).
Reload with Retention:
Shooter first grabs the mag that is in the weapon with their offhand.
Then the shooter puts the partially used mag in a dump pouch, pocket, etc and grabs new (fully loaded) mag on the way back towards the weapon.
Shooter inserts new mag into the weapon.
Now that is covered, I will explain why I believe that reloads with retention are superior.
As some of you know, we teach basic defensive pistol and carbine at the local gun club (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53109[/url).
Many of these shooters have NEVER had any training (other than what they have learned via the movies and TV). Last weekend, we got into the three types of mag changes (emergency, tactical and retention). When we started the tactical reloads, there were mags being dropped, falling out of weapons and being held onto while firing the weapon. In fact, I would say that more than 70% of the 20 shooters had some issue with dropping a mag at one point or another. They all thought that it was a difficult skill to do well (under speed) and found that they did not have a lot of control and power while trying to insert the new magazine.
We then moved onto reloads with retention. This worked out MUCH better with only one dropped mag out of the bunch. Because they only had one mag in their hand at any one time, they felt that they had much more control of the mag and inserting it into the weapon.
At the end of the class, I did a poll and asked the students if they were under stress, muddy, bloody, etc, which reload type would they go to. They all answered reload with retention.
Anyone else use this form of reload VS tactical reload???
Breaking down the two, both require only one trip to the body. The tactical reload requires more fine motor skills to manipulate the hand to hold the fresh mag while unloading the pistol and then vice versa. The retention method requires less dexterity.
I use the retention method. Reload time is less than two seconds wearing concealment garment.
For the same reasons singlestack wonder listed, I prefer reloading with retention. I’ll add… for the retention method, your support had is usually already on the weapon… so going for the mag in the well to be retained, dumping it, grabbing the new mag, and inserting it is more natural and takes one less step. A quick breakdown…
Reload with retention: hand to mag in magwell to pouch to mag to magwell.
Tac reload: hand to mag on body, to mag in magwell, old mag out, new mag in, old mag to retention.
In theory, it’s not too many more steps but, as singlestack put it, requires more motor skills.
Agree, but I will tell you that a lot of instructors ONLY teach the Tactical Reload and I know many shooters that do not like the reload with retention.
Rated brings up a good point, too. One mag in the hand at a time. Most don’t necessarily have a hard time with tac reloads but most will find reloading with retention to be simpler.
I would not base my technique choice off of what a group of novices find it easier to do.
Yes the tac reload can be quite bumbly, it takes practice to get it right, not something you can just pick up and do.
While yes you want to do it fast, a tac reload/reload with retention is done when you have time, opportunity and cover. So speed while still a top priority does not need to be as stressed. That being said, both types of reloads for mysef clock in at the same time.
A tactical reload IMHO is superior because it leaves you with only one round in the gun for a shorter period of time, in case all that time/opportunity/cover goes away.
During a reload with retention, as you stated, you remove the mag, leaving one round in the gun. You move down stow the old mag, acquire a new one, and send it home.
With a tac reload the old mag comes out, new one goes in. There is a much smaller amount of time you only have 1rd in the gun.
Is all this one round in the gun that important? Maybe, I dont know, but I prefer to have bullets in my gun as fast as possible.
As for the people having trouble seating mags, not to be an asshole, but tell them to practice this, eat steak and go to the gym.
To address fine motor skills, I’ve had an instructor who thought the difference between fine motor skills and gross motor skills was minimal in a gun fight. The previous argument I’ve heard is that all fine motor skills go out the window in a high stress situation, so you should focus on gross motor skills when operating your weapon (clearing jams, etc). This other instructor indicated that pulling the trigger, hitting the mag release and hitting the slide release (or ping-pong for rifles) are all fine motor skills. If those went out the window, then you wouldn’t be able to do any of those things. Bottom line is probably training.
I will also mention this was in the context of a pistol class and I haven’t had nearly as much training or experience as others here with a pistol and I have no rifle experience at this point, as I’ve yet to get it out to the range.
Oh I am not. The point about showing what new shooters did was to illustrate that it is a much harder skill to perform. This was of course on a flat range without anyone shooting at you.
I have been doing reloads with retention for YEARS and believe that under stress, most folks will screw up a tac reload. Couple that with that fact that very few gun owners will ever practice tac reloads, reloads with retention are the way to go.
While yes you want to do it fast, a tac reload/reload with retention is done when you have time, opportunity and cover. So speed while still a top priority does not need to be as stressed. That being said, both types of reloads for mysef clock in at the same time.
A tactical reload IMHO is superior because it leaves you with only one round in the gun for a shorter period of time, in case all that time/opportunity/cover goes away.
This above statement contradicts your other statement (FYI). You only do a tac reload when you are behind COVER and have TIME to do so. You are NOT going to do this reload IF you believe there is even a small chance that you will have to shoot someone in the next 3 seconds.
As for the people having trouble seating mags, not to be an asshole, but tell them to practice this, eat steak and go to the gym.
PJ
This is not the answer. There were no 90lbs weaklings in the class. The majority of them were blue collar workers.
Correct. “Super Dave” Harrington discussed in length (at a carbine class) about doing reloads with retention and why this method served him well in the SF.
The most compelling reason I have heard for tactical reloads versus reloads with retention is that by going to the new mag first, you confirm that you have a new mag, rather than dumping the old mag only to find you’re out. That made sense to me.
Half used mags should either be in a different location (dump pouch, cargo pocket) than your next in line mag or in the farthest position away from your go to mag.
Since you are behind cover, you have the time to glance down or feel if you do in fact have another mag available.
Handgun it is easier as you don’t have the weight or length. I would still argue though that with gloves on, sweaty, nervous, muddy and bloody, the tac reload will be harder to perform and you have a MUCH greater chance of screwing it up.
As a non-military person, you have typically at most two spare magazines? The reason for retaining the magazine to begin with is in case you need that ammo later. If things have gotten so bad that you’re going to partial magazines then you’re likely wanting that extra ammo in the gun as fast as possible. If you’ve done your admin reload and stowed the partial in a pocket, good luck getting it in a hurry.
If you train to TR into the rear-most pouch, and ER from the front-most pouch, that partial is right there where you’d go looking for it eventually anyway.
I have to agree with Grant on pulling an empty mag. During my drills, etc. my empties are in a separate location so as not to mix them up with full mags. I just find that dropping the empty, reaching down and grabbing a full and smacking it in is much smoother and less likely to result in mistakes. It may not be tacti-cool or be what you see in the movies, but it works.
Something else on this topic… (I think we actually covered this many moons ago, around the time the forum was founded, which prompted me to run this test)
We actually put a group of shooters, around 30 IIRC, on the clock with RwR and TR with the carbine. Virtually without fail the RwR resulted in shorter splits. I understand the argument that the TR results in a “one shot firearm” for less overall time, but our testing showed that most shooters wouldn’t ditch the partial magazine like they are theoretically supposed to but instead ran it all the way back to the pouch and got both hands back on the carbine anyway, negating that advantage.
The shooters that were faster with TR were ones that had practiced it to the exclusion of the RwR and were otherwise very good shooters.
