Tactical Reloads VS Reloads with Retention

[rob_s]

@azidpa

if simplicity is the requirement, why not jettison the mag in the weapon to the ground and insert the fresh mag.
chalk it up to a combat loss?

“Combat loss” is easy to say when you have a “combat load”, but when you have very limited numbers of magazines on you or available to you, the theory goes that every round counts.

In IPSC/USPSA shooters drop partial magazines on the deck all the time, and I have actually seen some new shooters attempting to emulate this run out of ammo before the end of a stage due to a miscalculation when shooting.

[C4IGrant]

@VMI-MO

So, because some one is lazy, and doesnt practice a skill, it should be discarded?

If you do not train a skill, then do not rely on it.

If you are serious about that skill, train it, and you can do it.

I am not discarding anything. Yes, people are lazy, but the reality is that they just don’t know what they don’t know, but think they do know. “I have my CCW or learned to shoot from my father and don’t need no stink’n training.”

My point is that most instructors are ONLY teaching tac reloads and NOT retention reloads. New shooters should be taught retention reloads FIRST and then tac reloads.

Yes you only do it with time/cover/opportunity.

But shit happens,unexpected things pop out.

Yes it does. If we are going to get super technical on what is the best option if someone suprises you while you are behind cover, shooting the one round in the gun and then transitioning to your pistol makes the most/fastest sense.

I have seen 90lb weaklings execute this. Because they understand what needs to happen and know how to make it happen.

I have seen people shoot a Glock from between their legs at over 100yds and hit a steel 10" plate. People can make anything happen if they want too. That isn’t what this thread is about though.

I have seen 220lb meat eating monsters screw this up because they did not understand how to do it properly.

IMHO it all comes down to training.

PJ

I have seen this too. A lot of people are not blessed with good coordination, dexterity and or good motor skills. This is why tac reloads are not for everyone.

C4

[C4IGrant]

@rob_s

The counter thought on this is…

As a non-military person, you have typically at most two spare magazines? The reason for retaining the magazine to begin with is in case you need that ammo later. If things have gotten so bad that you’re going to partial magazines then you’re likely wanting that extra ammo in the gun as fast as possible. If you’ve done your admin reload and stowed the partial in a pocket, good luck getting it in a hurry.

If you train to TR into the rear-most pouch, and ER from the front-most pouch, that partial is right there where you’d go looking for it eventually anyway.

There are about three different shooting environments here. Training, CCW, .Mil/LE combat.

Each will or could have a different answer to where the mags go and why.

IMHO, I just want to retain the mag in some way. At my next cover point, I can then move the mags to a position that I can use them (if needed).

C4

[C4IGrant]

@azidpa

if simplicity is the requirement, why not jettison the mag in the weapon to the ground and insert the fresh mag.
chalk it up to a combat loss?

Because they have ammo in them. Never give up ammo (especially as a CCW holder with only 1-3 mags in your possession).

C4

[C4IGrant]

@rob_s

Something else on this topic… (I think we actually covered this many moons ago, around the time the forum was founded, which prompted me to run this test)

We actually put a group of shooters, around 30 IIRC, on the clock with RwR and TR with the carbine. Virtually without fail the RwR resulted in shorter splits. I understand the argument that the TR results in a “one shot firearm” for less overall time, but our testing showed that most shooters wouldn’t ditch the partial magazine like they are theoretically supposed to but instead ran it all the way back to the pouch and got both hands back on the carbine anyway, negating that advantage.

The shooters that were faster with TR were ones that had practiced it to the exclusion of the RwR and were otherwise very good shooters.

I put myself under time for both. The times were almost identical and I had more control of the mag with the retention method.

C4

[wake.joe]

If the mag still has ammo in it, I would do a Tac Reload. Only because I don’t want a 1/4 full mag in a dump pouch. And with retention, your mag pouch will still have a full mag in it.

But, other than this issue, I feel that Reload with Retention is a better system. Your weak hand should already be on the gun, so it’s quite easy to drop the mag. Then just stuff it in a dump pouch, or if you have an empty mag pouch already (Might start keeping one just for this), slip it into that. Grab a new mag on the way back up, and away you go!

[Gutshot_John]

My primary pistol instructor teaches both methods and we actually troubleshot the difference between the two this weekend. The result: I use a reload with retention simply because it works and it’s fast.

This though has been a conscious switch as I’ve transitioned to the M&P.

I can do a tac-reload with a Glock magazine but with the extended base plate of the M&P it became exponentially more difficult especially if you have smaller hands like me.

The RWR seems to conserve more movement as well.

[system]

@C4IGrant

I am not discarding anything. Yes, people are lazy, but the reality is that they just don’t know what they don’t know, but think they do know. “I have my CCW or learned to shoot from my father and don’t need no stink’n training.”

That is not the shooter I am around. So I guess what works for guys I shoot with, does not work with your crowd. Roger that, fine by me.

@C4IGrant

Yes it does. If we are going to get super technical on what is the best option if someone suprises you while you are behind cover, shooting the one round in the gun and then transitioning to your pistol makes the most/fastest sense.

For your group of shooters, how often in the realm of them actually getting in a gun fight will they have both a long arm and handgun?

Chances are, I will not.

On top of that, with a TR, I would have more than just that one round in the rifle to blast someone with (this was said as more of a joke)

@C4IGrant

People can make anything happen if they want too.

Then why cant they make the tactical reload happen?

@C4IGrant

I have seen this too. A lot of people are not blessed with good coordination, dexterity and or good motor skills. This is why tac reloads are not for everyone.

C4

I failed in the point I was trying to make.

People who are trained properly, IME are able to reliabley conduct the tactical reload.

Those who are not, cant.

People do what they are trained to do.

PJ

[rob_s]

I think there is a valid argument for knowing the type of shooters you are dealing with and using techniques that work for that group and their habits the best.

I do think it’s possible to teach a group of people, people who are dedicated and will put in the time, to perform the TR reliably. The problem is the dedication and the time. I suspect I deal with a similar group to Grant, and I focus on the RwR as a “100% solution” with these folks as the TR for them is a “90% solution”, especially with the carbine, and definitely with the AK.

[azidpa]

@C4IGrant

Handgun it is easier as you don’t have the weight or length. I would still argue though that with gloves on, sweaty, nervous, muddy and bloody, the tac reload will be harder to perform and you have a MUCH greater chance of screwing it up.

C4

In regards to exchanging carbine size magazines, I agree.
It’s difficult to perform a traditional tac-load under training conditions, so why bother trying to master it when the retention reload accomplishes the same thing?

At the same time, why do trainers insist on extolling this as one of the tools-in-the-tool-box when
[ul]
[li] the disaster factor is high on performing it correctly under stress
[/li][li] the likelyhood of a private individual actually needing this skill is low
[/li][li]there are other simpler means to achieve the same objective
[/li][/ul]?

[C4IGrant]

@VMI-MO

That is not the shooter I am around. So I guess what works for guys I shoot with, does not work with your crowd. Roger that, fine by me.

Only about 10-15% of shooters actually seek out training. They are the NORM and the people that you and I are around are not the norm.

For your group of shooters, how often in the realm of them actually getting in a gun fight will they have both a long arm and handgun?

It isn’t about “my group of students,” but about combat in general. This could be for the home owner dealing with a multiple threat home invasion, beat cop or Military.

People who are trained properly, IME are able to reliabley conduct the tactical reload.

Don’t really know that. I see “trainined” shooters screw this up all the time on the square range. It will always be more reliable to ONLY have ONE mag in your hand at a time. There is just no arguing it.

C4

[C4IGrant]

@azidpa

In regards to exchanging carbine size magazines, I agree.
It’s difficult to perform a traditional tac-load under training conditions, so why bother trying to master it when the retention reload accomplishes the same thing?

At the same time, why do trainers insist on extolling this as one of the tools-in-the-tool-box when
[ul]
[li] the disaster factor is high on performing it correctly under stress
[/li][li] the likelyhood of a private individual actually needing this skill is low
[/li][li]there are other simpler means to achieve the same objective
[/li][/ul]?

All good questions. The only thing I can come up with a reason is that the instructor has not evolved with the times (hard to say).

I have informed the shooters I teach that they SHOULD practice tac reloads as they will see these types of requirements from many instructors.

C4

[jjw]

i think it depends on the level of trg a student is given prior to this concept

u are dealing with new people, so i agree they would like it.
easier
smoother
less chance of mistakes in front of the instructor.

consider this opposite idea.
grab mag from pouch
drop mag in gun
insert mew mag ( now u are “hot” to stop threat)
dump old mag where ever.

i am not a fan of either and have been vocal about it to
Ken
Larry
Walt Rauch
Rich Jee
many others
in a trg or a match all well and good
i dont see me doing it in the real world.
in a fight u will do the quickest thing to get back in the fight u can.
i just dont see fiddling with the mags in either case.

of course i carried 30 ar mags in asia. no pistol, in Nam. all old technology now. every 1 carries a pistol .
carried 1 in S. America (used so little, could have done with out it) still carried 15 ar mags. pistol was t.o.& e.

u are correct in ur original question and (as usual) correct in ur assessment of students.

possible define the working platform for the question. u see a lot of newbies. i dont. they will also follow your lead as the instructor, so find a way and stick with it.

good luck

[system]

@C4IGrant

Only about 10-15% of shooters actually seek out training. They are the NORM and the people that you and I are around are not the norm.

I will agree I am not normal, nor are most of my friends:D.

@C4IGrant

It isn’t about “my group of students,” but about about combat in general. This could be for the home owner dealing with a multiple threat home invasin, beat cop or Military.

PM inbound.

@C4IGrant

Don’t really know that. I see “trainined” shooters screw this up all the time on the square range. It will always be more reliable to ONLY have ONE mag in your hand at a time. There is just no arguing it.

C4

I have seen guys sweaty, freezing, tired, cold, wet, on the verge of puking, wearing gloves be able to execute proper tac reloads with excellent reliability.

I personally feel comfortable doing it in just about any situaiton I can think of.

Once again, it all comes down to the level of training you have, your proficiency, and your dedication to maintaining a perishable skill.

PJ

[Treehopr]

Years ago, I took a rifle course at FrontSight and they had just switched over to Reload with Retention because it was easier for new students to learn- FWIW

I’ve been taught both and fumbled both, back when I was in the army and we had LCE pouches the preferred method for stowing empty or partial magazines was to put them back in the magazine pouch with the feed lips up so you would see either the follower or brass. Full mags were kept with feed lips down to facilitate faster reloads- we didn’t have dump pouches and weren’t smart enough to invent one. Magazines were retained because the armorer had a hand receipt with our signatures on it. Lose 1 or 2 over the course of a year and it was understandable, burn through 7 every month and you’re getting a statement of charges…

I’ve seen shooters miss their dump pouches or end up burning so much time trying to get a partial AR mag back in a chest rig (usually flapped with velcro or bungee tabbed) that whatever “reliability” they gained by attempting to stow the used magazine was probably offset by how much time it took.

I concur with VMI-MO as far as how much the student is willing to practice. It also depends on physiology as I’ve known several shooters who just aren’t able to get two AR mags in one hand.

For an AR-type I prefer tac-reload.
For my AK I stow the partial magazine first.
For pistol I do tac-reloads.

YMMV

[azidpa]

@rob_s

“Combat loss” is easy to say when you have a “combat load”, but when you have very limited numbers of magazines on you or available to you, the theory goes that every round counts.

In IPSC/USPSA shooters drop partial magazines on the deck all the time, and I have actually seen some new shooters attempting to emulate this run out of ammo before the end of a stage due to a miscalculation when shooting.

Currently, my street combat load is a loaded pistol & 1 spare mag.
In my avatar, I had at least 7 magazines.
I’m familiar with the theory.

What I don’t buy is the traditional line of thought that “you may need that extra ammo so don’t leave it on the ground” when it comes to a
street level shooting (outside mil/le field).

I have yet to hear of any incident where any form of tacload made a difference in the outcome at the private armed citizen level.

Once again, ymmv.

[rob_s]

@azidpa

What I don’t buy is the traditional line of thought that “you may need that extra ammo so don’t leave it on the ground” when it comes to a
street level shooting (outside mil/le field).

I have yet to hear of any incident where any form of tacload made a difference in the outcome at the private armed citizen level.

Once again, ymmv.

That becomes an entirely different argument or discussion, which Grant at least tried to head off from the outset.

@C4IGrant

Before we start, I do not want to get into the merits of doing Tac Reloads VS Emergency reload (save that for another discussion).

[C4IGrant]

@rob_s

That becomes an entirely different argument or discussion, which Grant at least tried to head off from the outset.

I guess I failed.

C4

[azidpa]

no, you didn’t.
I don’t think we can have a “what” discussion without the “why.”
Getting back to the original question:

Are Reloads with Retention better than Tactical Reloads?

yes, by every measure.

[C4IGrant]

@azidpa

no, you didn’t.
I don’t think we can have a “what” discussion without the “why.”
Getting back to the original question:

yes, by every measure.

Discussing whether or not you should do a tac reload at all is an a totally long winded, seperate discussion (which is why I asked NOT to get into it).

C4