I’m having problems with getting behind a AR and shooting it well. I can drop in behind a bolt gun and shoot what I feel is my level of shooting but as soon as I get in behind an AR prone it all goes down hill real quick.
Best I can average is 1.5moa with my AR and in theory it should shoot better than that as I have used quality parts.
So assuming that the gun and ammo are good to go what fundamentals are different with the AR vs a bolt gun?
Thanks
I’d recommend taking a carbine class from a reputable instructor.
Ok?
What’s that got to do with the OP?
Maybe you need to get some training too then.:rolleyes:
Typical.
So you mean a carbine instructor is going to teach precsion rifle ideals? I think not. Theyd’d be fine with 1.5 moa.
So if you have something to add to the OP I’m all ears but the typical take a carbine class reposonce dose nothing for me as this is a thread in the precision rifle topic. But thanks for taking the time to respond.
I’m not entirely discounting what you are saying as I’m sure some carbine fundamentals carry over but there is something very different in regards to shooting a bolt gun vs a AR.
What kind of ammo are you using? What kind of AR are you shooting, what kind of barrel, etc? Are you running optics? Is your optic choice and mount quality?
If you’re running a chrome lined barrel shooting mil-spec ammo, I wouldn’t expect great results. Actually, with this combo, 1.5MOA would be outstanding.
If you’re running a quality barrel (typically higher end SS), shooting quality ammo, then yes, you’re expectation should be higher. Nice trigger helps too.
Assuming your running a quality rig and ammo, then it’s down to form. There are others here (calling Trident) who can help you much better than I.
I grew up on bolt/lever actions, but when I got behind an AR for some reason I wan’t as acc. as I knew capable of. So I took a carbine class (not for precision reasons) and my long range shooting got better as well with that platform. The AR is a whole different creature than a bolt. A class isn’t such a bad idea for many reasons…
I use both a “varmint” AR (RRA 24" heavy barrel) and various bolt guns on prairie dogs. I do just as well with the AR as I do with bolt guns. Not sure what sort of AR the OP is trying to use, so I’ll offer a couple general observations.
A precision rifle needs a good trigger. A typical bolt-action rifle will have a lighter and crisper trigger than a GI-type AR. For precision use, the AR will need a “match” trigger. These are offered by several makers and come factory installed on various varmint or precision AR rifles.
The GI-style pistol grips make it tempting to get too much of one’s finger on the trigger. A pistol grip that keeps the web of the hand farther rearward makes it easier to use the first pad of the trigger finger to address the trigger. I like Magpul’s MOE or the Ergo grip as well as any.
In order to get proper eye relief with a scope, most AR users will need a scope mount that cantilevers out in front of the upper receiver to get the scope far enough forward. Most users will end up with the ocular lens pretty much even with the rear of the receiver. Trying to just mount the scope directly on top of the receiver with tall rings usually won’t allow sufficient eye relief.
Rosco
I actually took a carbine class a few months back and it was geared much more to weapons manipulation than precision type shooting and yes there was lots of good stuff there
I wanted to try to steer away from the gun/gear I got for one reason. I know it’s me. By I’m running a SWFA SSHD 5-20 optic in a BOBRO mount a SSA-E trigger and a Fulton Armory (Criterion) barrel. I’ve tried factory ammo and several handloads one thing to throw in is that handloads are from a Dillion 550B. I don’t think it’s the ammo, factory stuff seems to shoot the same as the handloads.
I just can’t help to think that that my setup ought to shoot better than it is. I know with a bolt gun I can do much better and more consistent so there must be a difference in the way to shoot an AR than a bolt gun I just can for the life of me pit my finger on the problem area.
To the original posters questions.
In MY OPINION… You need to be more aggressive with your shooting technique when trying to get a semi auto to stay under 3/4moa. The semiautos are MUCH less forgiving of small changes in your grip, body position, shoulder pressure, follow through, trigger finger placement, etc.
I have better luck when using quite a bit of shoulder pressure on the buttstock. I lean in with the shoulder, loading the bipod, and pull back with the firing hand. Make sure you are pulling straight back.
I try to avoid bone on stock contact with my cheek. My jaw is touching but not hard enough for the bone to make contact, only the flesh and meat. Consistent head placement is also key. I try to keep my head level, not canted/cocked to the side. Eyes/ears parallel with the horizon.
The NPA needs to be dead nuts on. If the cross hairs are not on the target right were they need to be…then move the gun. If you are muscling the crosshairs onto the target before the shot your follow through will be more inconsistent.
Try to get as directly behind the gun as possible. Not the old school High Power method. Your barrel, shoulder, hip, and right leg should all be in line. Heels touching the ground.
In the field with uneven surfaces, odd angles, fatigue, and moving targets this becomes all the more important. Waddling from the detailed SUV to the concrete bench with a Starbucks in your hand, not so much.
This is assuming you have a rig that mechanically will do it. Optics, load, barrel, etc.
Again, this is just my opinion.
Are you wrapping your thumb around the pistol grip or placing it vertically along the spine / letting it rest against the receiver wall on the strong hand side? This is not necessarily gas-gun specific, but if you’re moving from a traditional stock to a vertical pistol grip it may be something to look at.
It seems you’ve eliminated a fair amount of the mechanical side of the question, but I’m curious at what range are you shooting at 1.5MOA, and then what weight bullets are you running. It’s not unusual for 53-55gr projectiles to group better out to 200m even in very accurate guns, and also not strange that certain barrels will dislike a certain brand/weight/ogive/sectional density projectiles.
Are your handloads running the same bullet as the factory ones?
I’m worse behind my SSA-E equipped Mk12 clone that the rifle itself is, but when I get the things Strow mentions right, it’s barely noticeable, if not indistinguishable when I’m running something other than match ammo through that upper. I’ve also learned that that barrel likes the Hornady 75gr projectiles more than the PPU 75gr, but outclasses me completely using 69gr SMK from BH or PPU stuff.
The grouping has been at 100yds, the handloads have been 52grain SMK, 68&75grain Hornady and 77grain Nolser. All powder has been Varget, all brass has been LC and all primers have been CCI400.Factory ammo has only been some 55grain? Hornady and XM193. I know the XM193 is not tack driving ammo but the results were basically the same as the other stuff.
Oddly enough the best groups I’ve had has been with the GI trigger before I dropped in the SSA-E. I have been fighting this thing for a while and got some advice from other shooters to get a trigger better suited for this type of shooting. I basicly just wanted to find out just what the limits were truly going to be with a GI trigger and after several months I thought I had found my NPA and opted to for the SSA-E thinking that it would have some postive and immediate effects on my groups. Well I’m tired of throwing money and parts at the problem thinking that I just need this or that and bolt it on and fix the issue. I know that I’m not doing something right, and there has been some good advice given that I will work on.
Thanks guys.
I just had Noveske replace a brand new SS upper that would not shoot. 4 bullets, 4 powders, 3 factory match loads. None would do better than 1.5moa.
The replacement barrel shoots 24.5gr Varget, Win brass, Wolf primers, and 75gr Hornady BTHP into sub MOA at 400yd.
Sometime you just get a bad barrel.
Try someones rig that will shoot sub moa for them. If there rig will go sub MOA for you then it’s an equipment issue.
Your ar may not be as accurate as a bolt gun.
I was always lead to belive AR platform will be less accurate vs bolt gun. AR with its multiple moving parts, violent extraction(esp in carbine gas length) before bullet has even left barrel. The bolt action locks up completly until shooter cycles action, the only movment is trigger. So in order to get AR shooting like bolt, Its has to be set up with precision in mind (trigger,barrel,etc) to match bolt acc.
This is great advice - and conversely… get someone who can shoot ars better than you (a known moa-sub moa shooter or such) shoot yours. If they also get 1.5" group or close - you’ll know its the gun. Make sure its properly put together - tight scope rings/screws and tight barrel nut. Even if you “know” its right - double check everything before dropping $ on replacement parts.
What twist is your barrel? I’ll assume its faster than 1 in 9.
Currently my R-15 is running Varget, CCI400, LC brass, 55 Vmax getting 3/4 to 1 MOA.
It really sounds like you could have a component/ammo issue.
I always liked the heavier bullets with Varget esp 69gr hpbt and 77gr
I think you may have reached the accuracy potential of the barrel at 1.5MOA. I have personal experience with 3 different Criterion barrels and all seemed very close to 1.5" at 100yds even with good shooters and match ammo. I have also heard similar accounts from 3 others that have has the same experience with the Criterion barrels. I have shot much better groups (sub MOA) with both Lothar Walther and Noveske match barrels than with the Criterion. I no longer own a Criterion SS barrel and I am thinking of picking up another Lothar Walther in the future.
Cameron