Where are you getting your Lothar Walther barrels from?
As far as the Criterion barrels go I opt’d for it only because WOA was out and going to be for a while at the time I ordered. I read a little about them and everything at that time was very good. The rifles Fulton Armory builds and sells with this barrel have a 1moa guarantee so I’d like to assume that I should be able to expect that but you know what they say about assumptions.
I’ll contact FA and see what they say.
Thanks.
I think that you haven’t found the sweet load for your rifle. Rifles may shoot a variety of bullets into 1.5 inches, but when the “right” bullet is found, .5 inch groups can be achieved.
My bolt gun loves Sierra 69 gr. MatchKings over 24.5 grs. Varget at 2915 ft/sec. , so I was surprised when I shot the same load in a Colt HBar Elite and the expected tight group was about an inch. But I kept working with it, and before long I found that it loved 60 gr. Hornady V-Max bullets over 26 grs. of Win 748 or Varget powder. It began to drill those nice looking .5 inch five round groups with velocity at 3060 ft/sec.
I did an article for “Precision Shooting” magazine some years back comparing my varmint Model 70 Winchester and the Colt CR6724 varmint AR15. I fired four ten round groups with each rifle, back to back and averaged the group measurements. Each rifle was fired with its favorite load, and the bolt gun won…but not by much. If I recall correctly, the Model 70 averaged .8 or .9 for the 40 rounds and the HBar Elite averaged an inch or a shade over. Each rifle produced 5 round groups of .5 inch and sometimes even less. But add another 5 and human error begins to manifest, especially if you have a bug hole going and you know that a single bullet will ruin your average…and don’t forget the wind. That tiny puff of breeze at the wrong time can ruin your .5 inch rather easily.
Well I sent Fulton Armory an e-mail a few days ago, they got back with me today.
Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent them with personal info deleted and then their lame response.
“Just wondering. I purchased one of your Criterion AR-15 barrels several months ago and now I’m wondering what level of accuracy I should be getting. The barrel I have is the H-Bar NM SS 1x8. The accuracy I’ve been able to get out of it is averaging right at 1.5moa. I was expecting better and while I admit I am still developing as a shooter, no one else that has shot this rifle has been able to do better, one particular shooter has been shooting matches for 30 years. I’ve tried mainly handloads but some factory stuff also, nothing seems to change. Is this the accuracy I should expect? Dose that sound correct? I was hoping to start shooting some matches this year but have been chasing a rabbit it seems to get this thing shooting better.Until now I thought it just had to be me and or the need to find a pet load for the gun but now I’m wondering if I’ve just met the limitations of the gun.
I’d greatly appreciate your reply and or help.
Thanks.”
Their unedited reply.
"Our FAR-15 rifles with those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA based on the rifle so seems correct to me
Regards,
Clint Jr."
Well I still think I got some improvement to make as a shooter but I got no idea how they can say “those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA” or how a 1.5 moa barrel is a match barrel.
Oh well, I guess I’ll just have to live with it for now and see if the advice given here is going to make a difference or not.
Thanks all, I appreciate the time you spent giving me some help.
For what it’s worth, i had a hard time getting my rifle to shoot well at first as well.
I built a rifle with a 20" Krieger.
It started out with pretty bad groups, I would the stack first two shots, then stack two more an inch away and have the shots go back and forth, etc… You would think I had mixed ammo in the mag.
I almost burnt the rifle a few times…
The same would repeat regardless of what ammo was in there, i tried a few different Hornday loads, Black Hills 69gr and 77gr in .223 and 5.56, Atlanta Arms 77gr 5.56 and a few other brands I can’t remember at 100 yards.
I do not know anyone in my area to trade idea’s with etc… So I had to self train a lot.
I found practicing my follow through helped a lot as I started seeing the shots right away where I had to search for the holes before. Then I started catching inconsistencies in how I load the bipod, place my head behind the scope, etc… Once I became more consistent so did the groups, etc…
I can only assume how your griping the rifle is also different compared to a bolt gun, try playing with your grip. It might help.
Now I can keep 10 round groups around ~.8 MOA and 5 round groups pretty tight using Black Hills 77gr .223 and the Atlanta Arms 77gr 5.56.
Gonna throw something out that might be stupid… but how many rounds are through the barrel? If it was machined pretty rough, it may need broken in a bit more. I read about people shooting SS match barrels saying 2-4k rounds is where the accuracy is best IIRC. numbers might be off as it was a while ago and i’m going from memory here. That said, it wasnt 1.5 moa turning into .5, but it did get a little better.
I’d say I’m at 800 rounds through it.
There is no extraction, violent or otherwise, while the bullet is inside the bore. The BCG does not begin moving until after the bullet leaves the barrel
Little Crow Gunworks. They have Lothar Walther barrels on GB all the time. Customer service is top notch and they offer the L-W barrel with a 30 day money back guarantee as long as you don’t abuse it. My 20" L-W barrel likes the longer bullets http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297984775
Check your optic, rings and mount. Shoot the rifle with the muzzle device removed. If a muzzle device is installed too tightly, it can deform the barrel at the muzzle.
Criterion does not make match barrels. They make good affordable barrels that deliver reasonable accuracy and anything better than 1.5 MOA would be a pleasant surprise
I would guess if your gun was capable, with the trigger, your experience etc. you have a 1.5 inch gun. I have a 18 inch WOA RIFLE LENGTH GAS system that shoots well under an inch and will often give .5 inch.
Conversely, my 5R bolt will shoot the same 69 and 77 gr ammo .5 to .25 consistently. 5 shot groups.
I would guess your ammo / barrel are 1.5, NOT YOU.
My 11.5 and other SBR’s shoot 1.5.
Only question, what glass are you using? I run ACOG’s on many of my AR’s. And can shoot 1.5 to 2 inch groups. But to get smaller I need to pop on precision glass. I have a regular scope and LARUE mount in my bag to check accuracy on my AR’s. Kinda an expensive luxury, but I just ended up with it from left overs through upgrading.
You need decent glass for most folks to tighten groups, my old eyes do.
You are right, I should have worded that differ(here we go)…In the cases of overgassed carbines the lugs are being forced to unlock before bullet leaves barrel. In this case a lot of accuracy can be lost. A simple fix is to correct timming with heavier buffer, to slow down BCG cycle.
I dont think thats correct either. It may cause the bolt to unlock while pressure is still above atmospheric, but not while bullet is still in barrel. I would think that the bolt unlocking while under 20kpsi or so would result in a bad time.
I think its the barrel more than gas system.
Mega is right. The bolt cannot unlock until the bolt carrier moves rearward enough for the bolt cam to start turning the bolt. The carrier does not begin moving until the bullet has left the bore. It is the residual pressure in the rifle that operates it (the gases take awhile to vent after the bullet uncorks the barrel). Being over gassed should not affect accuracy unless it has a negative affect on barrel harmonics
A couple of questions on some things I did not see:
I assume that you are shooting supported, but off of what? A bench, bipod, sandbag etc?
Also, is there parallax adjustment on you scope? If so, make sure it is dialed in.
Now, the following is my opinion, so others experiences may vary and opinions differ.
I do not know if your goal is to shoot tiny groups, or just “get hits” at long range, but here are some tips on marksmanship so you can hopefully tighten up that group.
- Consistency is paramount in everything you do. Stock placement, cheek weld, eye relief, breathing, loading of bipod, body position etc. But most importantly, you need to be consistent throughout the string of fire. Even a slight change in something you do behind the gun can cause a POI shift.
I see it all the time with my soldiers, when we initially teach them to shoot, where they will take one shot, change something, take a new shot, change something and so forth until the string is complete. When they have 2" groups at 30 meters, it’s not hard to tell them why.
- Make sure that your shooting position is comfortable, that you are relaxed behind your gun. Also, when setting up the rifle, try to ensure that it is pointing straight at the target. Then, as has been stated, get as directly behind the gun as you can. Barrel, stock shoulder, hip should be in line, with the imaginary line that forms exiting somewhere on your right thigh (if you are right handed).
Do not muscle the gun on to the target, as that will cause unneeded muscle fatigue and pressure on the gun.
Let the gun recoil and do it’s thing. If you have a good prone position, the sights should fall directly back on target.
Good shooting!
Ok to answer a few of the question asked. All shooting has been from prone with a midway usa shooting mat that has the loop to load the bi-pod, I’ve been loading the bi-pod and doing my best to keep it as consistent as I can. But I’m sure there is room from improvement. I have not been pulling the gun into my shoulder as been advised by a few members here but I will start doing that. It’s going to be a week at least before I get back to the range, side work is keeping me busy right now.
Yes the Parallax has been adjusted every time.
The scope I’m using…
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
The mount…
http://swfa.com/Bobro-Precision-Optic-30mm-Mount-P47627.aspx
The gun… and no the GA Precision rig in back ain’t mine 
and needless to say it shoots much better than my AR.
Oh and of course I don’t expect my AR to shoot 1/4moa like the GA gun dose, any bolt gun seems to shoot more easily than my AR.
My shooting partner has suggested getting rid of the SOPOD stock as they are a little tricky to get a bag under them but I’m not wanting to spend the cash to just see what happens so I got creative with some kydex just to see if it helps.
It’s not going to be a long term fix for the stock but it was easy enough to try. Battleline Industries is supposed to be developing a mono-pod attachment for the SOPMOD stock so I’m holding out for that. Their SAPR stock thingy looks pretty slick too but again, I don’t know that it’ll make a real difference and that’s a lot of cash to just throw at the problem just to see what happens.
I’m leaning heavily to thinking that I’m the problem and you guys have been a huge help with somethings that I need to take into consideration and try.
Well, it aint the scope. Im guessing the load. Just for grins, buy some 55grain vmax hornady. They shoot an inch in everything decent.
Your load or barrel are less than perfect, or they don’t like each other.
It seems pretty straightforward, the company where’s he got his barrel said his results are in spec, hence if he wants tighter tighter groups he should have bought, or should buy, a better barrel.
OP don’t be so quick to dismiss training. Just because the trend of the day is pistol classes with long guns doesn’t mean that’s what everyone does. Randy Cain’s carbine class will go out to 200 yards if the facility has it available, and that class is really a rifle class taught with the carbine. He also offers an urban precision class that may be more in line with what you’re doing.
Oh I don’t dismiss training, I can’t take a class anytime soon for various reasons but I do plan to take more. I know there are lots of guys here that know their stuff and if I can get some help from them for now why not?
I do stand corrected. Thankyou for settn me straight. Not sure how I came about said info, but untill you corrected I belived that. Thanks “Little is learned through success and much through failure”. Lunchbox
Well, like I said, I think it’s pretty clear that you’ve maxed out the guaranteed performance of the barrel you have based on the response that you got, so you’re going to need a new barrel if you want to be able to shoot tighter groups.
Have you considered that all the hand loads you have used though stellar performers in a bolt gun just are not capable of doing better than 1.5 MOA in your AR?
I’ll give you an example last week I tested Nosler 55g Baliistic tips with H335 loads for groups out of my bolt gun a R700 SPS TAC. I settled on 24.5g as it gave me the best grouping of .284 MOA
I loaded up another 100 rounds and yesterday rechecked for groups out of the R700, 3 group all under .4 MOA… Move to my DD4 Carbine 16inch Battle comp, Milspec… but a rifle I have a sub MOA handload for and have tested numerous times in the past.
Best I could accomplish was 1.2 MOA. OP, I honestly think its just the rifle load combo.
I see you point but I don’t know for sure how to take this statement from them "“Our FAR-15 rifles with those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA based on the rifle so seems correct to me”
So those same barrels are capable of .5moa depending on the rifle? Well I got a FF handguard and a good trigger, I torqued the barrel nut properly, I even lapped the upper receiver and installed the A2 flashider loosely and used loctite to keep it in place.
I’m not saying I have not met the limitations of the gun I’m just saying that I know there has got to be a difference in the way you shoot a bolt gun vs an AR and I think there has been some good posts from some fellow members that agree and have some great ideas that I need to try. If I could spend the money on a different barrel and instantly start shooting better I’d be happy but I’m not sure that I’m not to blame, (even though other have not done much better with the gun)
So yes I agree with what you are saying but have not yet ruled out me being part of the problem.