Reloading vs Buying Steel Cased Ammunition

General Firearms Reloading & Ammunition
41

Dave; thanks for clarifying. And as you said; I do stand by my recommendation for the Noob who isn’t currently into reloading. There’s both a financial and time investment. Time… that’s part of the Hobby, and only the individual can determine that. I.e. it doesn’t matter if you like it, hate it, have no life, do it instead of watching tv, etc… Time is totally a personal preference choice. Money on the other hand is factual. For that; the fact remains that for the noob spending about $400 on a complete reloading setup; press, dies, trimmer, priming, tumbler, etc… ($400 is a decent average beginning price for a complete setup). Saving $1 a box over $4 a box steel case ammo, requires reloading 8000 rounds (400 boxes) to break even on the initial startup cost. This is ALL I was saying. And for the average person shooting 1000-2000 rounds a year, that could take a couple years. That’s all I want the Noob to know. If it’s a Hobby s/he wants to do for the enjoyment, then cost is secondary. But strictly on a financial reload vs steel case .223; the cost should be considered.

Oh, and Chad. Everyone has their pet peeves. One for me is when people say “AnywayS”. Not that you did. You didn’t. Just mentioning one. But another pet peeve I have is when people read into something I didn’t say to make it SOUND worse than it is. And it’s worse when they even QUOTE ME, and then get their own quote wrong. You chastised my post by saying:

This is an assumption on your part. It may or may not take several years to make up the cost of equipment.

Yet, what I said, and you correctly quoted me as saying is:

it will be a couple of years of reloading until he breaks even

Sorry; but a COUPLE is not SEVERAL. And we all know that you using the word SEVERAL implies that I am exaggerating my claim. Please don’t imply that which I did not say. And as I showed above; at a $1 a box savings on average; that is what a couple people have said they save over steel case ammo, it would take approximately 8,000 rounds before a typical small sized average $400 reloading setup would be paid off. For the average shooter, that’s a COUPLE of years. 2-3+/-.

Also; I am, was, and have been very clear that reloading can definitely be a good option for some people. I have not given ANY generic one size fits all answer for anyone. So NO, I won’t stop. Again, you even quoted me showing where reloading can in fact be a great hobby; and I’ve said a number of times that it can produce more accurate ammunition, and CAN even save you money. But you don’t want to read that. (Even though you quote me). No; you want to read into it what you want it to say. No, you need to stop.

42

Well I guess we are even then since the OP explicitly says he was even after 1.5 years which you morphed into a COUPLE.

Please don’t imply that which I did not say. And as I showed above; at a $1 a box savings on average; that is what a couple people have said they save over steel case ammo, it would take approximately 8,000 rounds before a typical small sized average $400 reloading setup would be paid off. For the average shooter, that’s a COUPLE of years. 2-3+/-.

Also; I am, was, and have been very clear that reloading can definitely be a good option for some people. I have not given ANY one size fits all answer for anyone. So NO, I won’t get off of it. Again, you even quoted me showing where reloading can in fact be a great hobby; can produce more accurate ammunition, and CAN even save you money. But you don’t want to read that. (Even though you quote me). No; you need to get off it.

You said:

We’re talking about a person who is wanting to simply shoot .223 for the enjoyment of it, and whether reloading the .223 is “Financially” better than buying steel case ammunition at $4 a box. He presented the question. Not me. And the short answer is: No. It’s not financially worth it. Not for him.

So, basically, for the person who wants to shoot 223 for enjoyment, you came out with “No, it is not financially worth it.” That is pretty much a blanket statement and there was no clarification that it was the person shoot a few hundred rounds a month only. People can shoot for enjoyment and shoot 2000 rd a month as well (that is only 500 a week).

It may or may not be financially worth it even for the person you were talking about. You gave no such latitude. You were pretty much laying down the fact of the matter.

My point was that each person gets to decide if it is worth it for themselves. SO what if it takes 2-3 years to make back the cost of the equipment. After that, you are saving a few hundred bucks a year. (And the OP obviously came to a different conclusion on the exact question).

43

Actually sir, with my volume of shooting I’m saving $1300 per year :). That’s just in .223 and 9mm, buying steel cased.

I won’t even go into 6.8 spc,10mm or .357 magnum!!!

:).

I’ve made my money back allready… again I wanted to illistrate how the cost savings work for those who don’t reload yet…or want to do the math themselves…

Again, just what I saved in the last year has payed for my equipment.

As a bonus I’ll be taking an extra class this year I otherwise wouldn’t have!!

-Dave

44

I thought the original post was about the economics and the OP already had a good deal of high-end equipment?

Once you’ve taken the leap and sunk the cash, no reason to let that equipment gather dust unless you can’t stand the hobby or can’t devote the time required. That’s why I answered this question like I did.

Even then, you don’t need a Dillon for bottleneck rifle. It doesn’t gain you all that much speed and a Giraud might be a better purchase. A single stage setup can be had for ~$250. Sure, only shooting 2K annually of only .223 and nothing else, it’ll take someone 2.5 years to pay that off, but for the rest of their shooting life, by in large, they can still save a little money.

You’re of course correct, in off-hand rapid fire shooting, putting rounds into a 8" paper plate at <100 can be done with any ammo, and any accuracy improvement from reloading is by in large, in the noise. I still like knowing that my equipment isn’t what’s holding me back, and that a miss is all me.

However, when you move to a more stable position, accuracy differences in the $200/case steel cased and a good, even 55 gr FMJ, reload become apparent. Trying to shoot a ~4 MOA ammo/rifle combo into a sub ~3 MOA ring on a target can be a frustrating exercise, whereas a 1 or even 2 MOA combination is much more rewarding.

45

Mizer; if you look at the OP’s post just prior to yours, you’ll see that he says he wanted to illustrate “How the cost savings work for those who don’t reload yet”. And that was my point all along. Cost of reloading for someone who doesn’t reload yet.

You are totally correct that if you’re already reloading, that it’s really a none issue. Pay a few dollars for another set of dies and you’re on your way. I don’t and have never disagreed with that. And Chad also makes a great point that it’s up to the individual whether a 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 year payoff for the “New Reloader” is worth it or not. That is true. Again, I was responding strictly based on the individual who has never reloaded before; MUST buy all the reloading equipment needed; and begin a new hobby of reloading ONLY .223 ammo; vs; buying steel case ammo. I don’t think it’s worth it. But it’s definitely up to the individual. I don’t see $1 a box to be worth my time. But again; that’s up to the individual to decide.

When I first started reloading; in the 70’s; it had nothing to do with the cost. It was totally about the hobby of it. I restore cars for the hobby of it. It was nice that reloading paid for the equipment and saved me money, but I did it because it was fun. At that time however, there really wasn’t any cheap steel case ammo either.

But again; so I’m clear; for the noob who has NEVER reloaded before. If money isn’t an issue, then reloading is definitely a great hobby. It can create superior ammo. It can be fun. If money is somewhat of a concern, simply realize that there is an initial investment. For an average reloading setup; the payback is about 8,000 rounds. (400 boxes). If you were reloading the 30-378, it would be about 80 rounds (4 boxes). If you plan on reloading multiple calibers, then the payback will be sooner. And finally; if you already reload, then this topic would NEVER have been of interest to you, because ADDING an additional caliber is insignificant. It’s an automatic savings to reload. Even over steel case ammo. Then, it’s just a matter of an individual placing a value on their time.

46

I’m in violent agreement with one you, and your previous post. I edited it for brevity.

More food for thought:

Equivalent reloaded (brass cased) ammo vs. identical factory (brass cased) ammo, I save a minimum of $.15 a round shooting .40 and .223 over ~18K rounds annually. 1K of Reloaded SMKs vs. factory FGMM or BH, I’m saving ~$.55 a round.

All told, my annual savings are ~$3,250 if I stick to brass vs. brass. Steel cased drops it to <~$1,800 annually, and is heavily swayed by the OTM rounds I shoot, as they don’t come in steel.

Given that it takes me ~140 (est.) hours annually (2.6 hrs/wk) to pump out 7K rounds, I’m only paying myself a net of $12.85/hr or about $15.42/hr gross (steel vs. brass). About $32K annually (gross). That amount almost doubles if we’re talking about brass cased.

But since I’m not working during that time anyway (nor care to be), and couldn’t use that time for shooting either (dark mostly), I’m really valuing the opportunity cost of my liesure time at that amount. Pistol is a little better, as I’m essentially valuing liesure time at $18/hr net given a higher sustained run rate vs steel cased, and could be even higher if I reloaded with my hair on fire or bought better equipment.

If you’re satisfied with the performance of steel cased (vs. reloads and vs. brass cased factory ammo), getting the savings alone is may not be a good reason to reload .223, unless you’re changing the economics by shooting better quality projectiles.

47

See; we don’t really disagree at all. For me, shooting “X” MOA is not important. I can use iron sights or a 1x red-dot (Basically the same), and hit a 4" x 4" section on the target with a full magazine of steel case ammo. For me, that’s cool. It’s fun. I’m not looking for anything more accurate than that. But I definitely understand the person who wants to get into the marksmanship side of shooting. Where accuracy is a product of proficiency. The same with time and money. That is all personal. I’m now 50 years old. For me, my time is better spent doing other things than reloading. But each person is different.

I also only shoot .223 about 5,000 rounds a year. If I reloaded instead of buying steel, (Because the quality of steel is fine for what I want), I’d save about $250 a year. I blew that 2 weekends ago on blackjack at the casinos in Blackhawk. For me, $250 isn’t significant.

So yes, we are totally in agreement. The individual has to decide what the purpose of reloading for them vs steel ammo is for. If it’s because they want better accuracy, and buying brass will too much… Then yes; reloading is cheaper than buying quality brass ammo. And the payback is not to much time. If the purpose is to just have plinking ammo, and you just want to hit the target… Well, that’s then debatable. A lot will depend on how much you want to shoot and how much time you have. That’s definitely a personal choice.

Anyway; glad that we pretty much are in agreement. Hopefully the original poster’s purpose; (Allowing noob’s to .223 and reloading) to determine for themselves if it’s worth their time and initial investment to actually reload .223 ammo instead of buying steel case. For some people, it will be worth the time and/or money. For others, it won’t be worth it. But as long as people now understand the payback in rounds/time for reloading ONLY .223 ammo; then they can make an educated decision.

48

Here’s my perspective (it’s worth what you’re paying for it):

I already reload pistol cartridges on a RL550B

I don’t doubt that this would pay for itself, and I enjoy reloading enough to want to do it regardless of the financial benefits, but I’ve put off starting real rifle cartridges because (1) I haven’t had a lot of free time to deal with the steep learning curve, (2) I haven’t collected enough “free” brass yet, and (3) I haven’t been willing to plunk down the initial investment to make it happen.

Keep in mind, I already have a press and already reload. I just calculated it would cost approximately $1,000 to start reloading .223/5.56.
I figure it would cost another $400 or so to add .308/7.62.

Yes, maybe I could get started for less money, but (1) I’m a Dillon fan, and (2) I don’t want to bother with manual trimmers or hand primer pocket reamers. If I’m going to do this, I’m going to do it right.

Here’s the shopping list I came up with to start reloading one rifle caliber, without shipping or HazMat fees:

Equipment: about $600:
Dillon Super Swagger $100
Dillon Rapid Trimmer $225
Case trimmer sizing die $46
Die lock nut $5
Crimp die $27 (Same as seating???)
Seating die ??? $??
Dillon caliber conversion kit $45
Dillon tool heads (2x) $44
Dillon powder die $11
Dillon powder funnel $15
Dillon case gauge $26
Reloading manual $9

Reloading Supplies: $400-$500.
8lbs. Ramshot TAC $140
2,000 55gr. FMJ .224 bullets $150
5,000 Small Rifle Primers $125

Two questions:

  1. Dillon seems to sell a three die set (size/seat/crimp), but they only sell the sizing and crimping dies separately? If I use the trimmer/sizer die with the Rapid Trim, then I can buy a crimp die separately, but then what do I do about seating?

  2. What else am I missing here?

EDIT: I think my .380ACP shell plate and locator buttons would work for .223, so I won’t need a caliber conversion kit, just a powder funnel…

49

What you really need (accepting your need for wanting the electronic trimmer and the swager)

Dillon Super Swage
Dillon Rapid Trim Motor
Dillon Trimmer/Sizing Die

Conversion kit
Powder die
Toolhead

Some dies: Since the trim die also sizes you do not need a sizing die. However, you do need some way to expand the neck out again. Some people bypass that and go for high neck tension (since we are normally using boat tail bullets for most 223 you can do that). I use a Lyman M Die and just use the first segment of the insert. Probably around $20. You need a seating die and a crimp die. You can use a Lee factory crimp for around $10-$12. Dillon actually sells all three dies separately or in a set. I would buy them piecemeal. Lyman M die for neck expansion, Dillon seating die, Lee factory crimp die.

You don’t need an extra powder funnel as that comes with the conversion kit. You don’t need an extra die lock nut – the dies come with what you need but if you want extra Dillon sells a 5-pack of nuts around $5.

I just saw your bit about the 380. Yes, you can use the 380 conversion kit you already have and just buy the powder funnel. They are something like $14.50 or so now.

50

You might want a couple of tool head stands as well…

The .380 shellplate is the same one as the .223 shellplate…

You’ll want a another powder measure as well, maybe just get a quick change kit and an extra tool head and stand. I think that’s what I did, but I can’t remember.

I don’t bell my case mouths at all, just because it would be hard to add a M die to my case prep tool head, the vaccum attachment gets in the way of station 4. If I only had that 1050…:stuck_out_tongue:

-Dave

51

I don’t use a 550 for this, but a 650. With the trimmer on a 550 toolhead, is it possible to get a die of any sort on the opposite corner?

I will have to play with it next time I get to my man cave (recuperating from a broken ankle at the moment with big boot thing – bone mostly healed but now super stiff)

52

Nah… I wouldn’t know where to put tool head stands. I keep my other unused toolheads wrapped in rags in cardboard boxes in my reloading cabinet.

I’ve never done this, but maybe I’ll start at some point.

Now I go from .380 to .40 to .30 Carbine and just move the powder measure from one toolhead to the next (after making sure all the other powder is out of it) and then adjust it.

I typically do big a batch (several thousand rounds) of one caliber every couple years, so it’s not a big deal to make the switch.

You’ve lost me.

I think the powder funnel bells my pistol case mouths a bit, or maybe it’s the sizing die? I wasn’t planning to bell rifle cases, because I’ll be loading boattail bullets.

What’s an M die?

Thanks for the feedback… I need to go see how much .223 brass I have piled up.

53

Apparently, yes.

Dave said in a post on the first page that he has a universal decapper in station #1 and the RT1200B in station #3 of his RL550B…

54

The powder funnels for rifles in most cases do not have belling ends, like the pistol ones do.

Normally, your sizing die (not the trimmer/sizer) expands the next back out with an internal expander ball (or other shaped expansion piece depending on manufacturer). This is because the sizing process makes the internal dimensions of the case neck too small. Whether one needs to do this for training ammo using boat tailed bullets is open to question. If you do do it, I use a Lyman M die

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/rifle-die-details.php?brand=1&cartridge=5&die=10

I set it to only use the big first step, and not the little bit at the top which puts that little flare on.

55

Which is similar to what I do. So in that case you would put your M die on station 1 of your normal loading toolhead (or if you skip the neck expansion put another decap die on to push out any media that may get into the flash hole)

56

OK, the “M” die makes sense to me.

I had figured I’d put another decapper in position #1 of the loading toolhead to clear any media out of the flash hole, but this probably isn’t necessary.

I’m still confused about the “trimmer/sizer” die for the RT1200B.

Does this only trim/size to length, or does it size the entire cartridge body, like a full-length/small-base die (or like Dillon’s own carbide sizing die).

And what about a bullet seating die? Or is it better to seat and crimp with one die in one station? (I do this with pistol rounds.)

57

Call the Dillon tech guy at 800-223-4570 and see what setup he suggests.

For 55 grain - The Hornady 55 FMJBTs shoot really well and are very affordable in you can find them in the 1k bulk packs (try Wideners). Expect piss poor accuracy with 55 WWs.

There is no need to crimp the 55s (IMO), but a light taper crimp gives me a little better accuracy than the Lee FCD (but that’s with 77 gr bullets).

A standard sizer die will be handy in case you don’t want to trim every time. Be sure to get a case gauge so you can properly set the sizer die(s).

If you happen to buy pre-processed mil brass it’s advisable to size them anyway, or at least check a large sample in the case gauge.

58

Well, I would put the decap die on station one to get rid of any media in flash holes. It happens more than you think.

While I have not done it myself, it seems a lot of people don’t expand the neck out with boat tailed bullets. At least for training level ammo. So maybe you can skip the M Die. This gives a higher amount of neck tension than expanding the neck out. Which reduces the need for crimping.

I’m still confused about the “trimmer/sizer” die for the RT1200B.

Does this only trim/size to length, or does it size the entire cartridge body, like a full-length/small-base die (or like Dillon’s own carbide sizing die).

You don’t want to trim until after you have sized. So Dillon made the trim die also a FL sizing die (minus the neck expander ball). So you can kill two birds with one stone.

And what about a bullet seating die? Or is it better to seat and crimp with one die in one station? (I do this with pistol rounds.)

I personally seat and crimp on two different stations. Pistol and rifle. It is infinitely easier to set up and some people say the ammo so produced is more precise and consistent.

I use the Lee factory crimp die on my 55/62 grain training 223 loads as I wanted to see how it worked and it works fine for me. And it is not expensive at all.

For more precise loads (75/77) I will measure neck tension and maybe not crimp or use a standard taper crimp die to put a light crimp on.

59

What is a 55 WW?

They don’t have them in stock now but surplusammo.com had the LC 55 grain FMJ and they were super nice looking and when bought at 4000+ sizes were cheaper than anything including the wideners bulk packs.

Wideners is otherwise the best place to buy bulk 55gr and 62gr bullets.

I wish I had bought more but, at Wideners, back in the mid 90s you could buy 8000 bulk packs of IMI 55gr (also really nice) for $240 plus shipping of about $15-20. That was 3 cents each plus shipping. I still have some (mostly because they came in bags of 1000 or 2000 sealed and they got misplaced over the years so every once in a while I discover another bag of them – they also had 62gr IMI for like 4 or 4.5 cents back in the 90s when bought 5000 at a time and I find a few of those once in a while too :-). I also have the PRVI 55gr and 62 gr from Wideners bought back in 2007 from Wideners and they are pretty good as well. The 55 grain PRVI in 2007 were a hair under 7 cents and the 62 grain a hair under 8 cents each when bough 5000 at a time (delivered prices). If you can find bulk 55gr now you can sometimes get it for 7 cents (my LC came in at 6.7 last year from surplusammo.com).

There is no need to crimp the 55s (IMO), but a light taper crimp gives me a little better accuracy than the Lee FCD (but that’s with 77 gr bullets).

A standard sizer die will be handy in case you don’t want to trim every time.

No argument here though I also run the brass through the trimmer every time. Since that is now my sizing station it needs to happen to size and if it does not need to be trimmed, it won’t be trimmed by the Dillon trimmer. It saves me from having to figure out if I need to trim.

Be sure to get a case gauge so you can properly set the sizer die(s).

+1 on the case gage. I used to not use one but when I was setting my sizing trim die last I found it infinitely easier to do with the case gage. (I also hand checked every round I made using the CG for the ammo I took to my classes I was in just to make sure :wink: ).

If you happen to buy pre-processed mil brass it’s advisable to size them anyway, or at least check a large sample in the case gauge.

I treat all brass as unsized.

one thing to consider, which I have no experience with. Supposedly the RCBS X-die gets rid of the need to trim after the first trimming. That would save you some money as you could size everything and see what needed to be trimmed and set it aside. Often you won’t have to trim a lot after just one firing depending on the condition of the brass before hand.

This route could save you a bunch of money.

I am thinking about getting an X-Die and giving it a whirl.

60

WW is Winchester, (from Winchester Western).

Wideners had great prices on IMI M193 back then too. It shot great in my 1x9 Colt (and BMs) out to 300 Meters or so. Not so great in 1x7 twist chrome lined barrels (then or now), including a Colt Match. Off topic, but it’s interesting that Molon used a Colt 1x9 twist for his evaluation of various M193 brands recently.