Yes they can. A illegal sued Ranch Rescue’s owner and WON
The guy lost his land, all of it, and the illegals got it, or the market values for it
and yes, we’ve lost our minds in this nation…
The more pertinent question is - what if they decide to walk away? “Stop, or I’ll shoot!” Can you justify a shoot under these circumstances?
I have a good friend that lives down that way (Hereford, AZ) and it’s a really nice area. It’s a shame that these people have to live there daily lives knowing that there will be trespassers on their property.
As already mentioned, some of the trespassers litter, defacate, thieve, and commit other crimes. I wouldn’t be too happy about it if this was my property.
Maybe Mr. Barnett did not handle things the right way but if anybody should be going to trial for not handling things right, it should be the federal gov and the Border Patrol.
I agree with you, but that’s really not the point. I wouldn’t like it if a band of 16 illegal Mexicans were trespassing on my property either. But grabbing my firearm and moving out to confront them would probably land me right where it landed this dude.
There are smarter ways of dealing with this.
I know nothing about living on the border and I know even less about the actual facts of this case.
With 25 years of trial experience, I can tell you one thing … there’s more to this present action than appears. The hint is the conspiracy charge.
How’s this?
You stroll on out CCW style. Talk to them. Wave your arms tell them to NOT advance towards your house and to turn around and go another way. Your hope is they will go back across the border but in reality you are simply concerned with the safety of your household. They continue to advance in your direction which is the same as your household. You continue to yell not giving up ground. They continue to advance… You being to realize there is a language barrier. So then…? Fill in what you would do from here, or start another scenario.
Do you run back to your house grab your wife and kids and take off in your car? Call LE and wait it out? Fortify your house?
I agree rolling out with the gun 1st was retarded. Start with presence, move to verbal, if out numbered 16-1 I say skip the intermediate weapons and move on to drawing your weapon. If they continue to advance… Oh f-ing well. Maybe here might be the only time I would ever consider a warning shot… ever. Wide open field on your land men women and children… I could justify a warning shot here. Can’t believe I just said that. :eek:
the thing about the border areas is lots of drug runners carry guns if you are holding them under gun point chances are they are not going to pull theirs
the other thing remember the drug runners have made the south so unsafe many of the 4x4 guys wont go down to/on some trails unless they have numbers cause lots of stuff happens against us citizens like getting their cars stolen getting robbed at machete point by gangs of illegals etc…
look how now the parks dept wont give out research permits for the southern parks cause the ilegals and ilegal drug runners have made it so unsafe for them !!!
maybe people not familiar with the southern border problem really dont understand it sounds like
if you have gangs around where you live ? and gang members were trashing your property nightly what would you do !! please tell me you would just let them keep doing it then ?
if one day you are out working and 16 people come onto your property and you tell them to leave and they tell you to F off what would you really do then !!!
retreat ? to where ?
what if you are out rebuilding your fence for the 120th time and they come cut it in front of you and say F you what you going to do about it !
again what would you do ?
I’m not trying to turn this into a “what if” scenario because this can be gamed all kinds of ways and that’s not really my intent. But…
Moving to confront 16 strangers by your lonesome is not my idea of smart - armed or not. In fact, it is my idea of “very stupid”.
There’s a saying where I work: Only two things can come from this; nothing, or nothing good. This saying directly applies to moving out to confront 16 strangers with a firearm.
You guys are really not getting it - the guy chose to confront these 16 people. He could have chosen not to confront them. Would this have been “right” or “wrong”? It doesn’t matter - he could have contacted police and border patrol, armed himself, and observed them at a discrete distance. Hell he could have taken their picture or recorded them on video. If they moved toward him he could have evaluated the potential threat and assessed the option to safely retreat.
I know - “he shouldn’t have to!” etc. Emotion should not trump common sense.
I did not say that it was OK to go out and point a firearm at a human being that was not posing a threat. What I am saying is that if I were in his shoes, with illegal aliens trouncing across my land on a daily basis and the border patrol being uncooperative, then I might do something irrational. 
Indeed.
Average citizens armed with powerful firearms and professional training must exercise extreme discretion. It is a huge responsibility, this thing that we do - one of the reasons so many gun owners choose not to.
Understandable and I can see were you are coming form. We are wired differently I suppose. I don’t avoid situations because they might be dangerous particularly when the safety of my family is involved. That isn’t meant to be taken as a dig. Just an observation. I think we both agree the ability to avoid conflict is the greatest weapon. Sometimes though… Enough is enough. Does it make it right? Arguable till then end of time. Does it make it legal? We’ll see. Does it make it smart? Probably not as most “I’ve had enough” scenarios are ill conceived and executed poorly.
If I deemed it dangerous to my family to go out and confront 16 people then I simply wouldn’t do it. If they were 1000 yards off and I could keep visual on them and they weren’t heading towards my house, then I would simply call LE and continue to observe. If there were 16 armed men heading towards my house, I would have the family in the fastest vehicle I owned and doing felony speed to get away.
It does sound like this rancher was simply pissed off and had enough. I can sympathize. “should” he have done it is a relative discussion that can’t/won’t be finalized on a gun forum.
What Katar is getting at, which most people are missing I think, has a lot of merit. However, the other side will argue that the apathetic approach to everything nowadays is the reason for the decline of our nation. Both sides have weight. I for one am not intelligent or arrogant enough, to settle on a conclusion with such little information/education.
I’ve made clear under what circumstances I would approach, solely, 16 people on my land and what circumstances I wouldn’t. Oddly, the "would not"s outweigh the “would”.
The Constitution does not limit rights to citizens. The rights apply to ANYONE within the jurisdiction of the Constitution. That’s why Bush set up the prison in Guantanamo… he was trying to avoid the jurisdiction of the Constitution.
One thing we do NOT want to do is start decided who is and isn’t protected by the Bill of Rights.
I think the farmer may have violated the law by threatening deadly force in a circumstance he wasn’t permitted to do so, but I’m not sure I see a civil rights violation here.
citizens cant violate civil rights of other citizens- i thought this was established case-law?
i can do you wrong, and you can sue me- but only the government can violate your consitutional rights. are “civil rights” different than constitutional rights?
Be glad you don’t live on the Border or in the Southwest.
The answer apparently is ‘No’.
But, in Arizona the law used to be that a trespasser could be shot. Really.
It was changed about 30-35 years ago when some college student was killed by the homeowner for walking across the guy’s lawn. Sorry, but I don’t recall the history of the law.
And, regarding the civil rights of the illegals, it seems that the Supreme Court settled that about 1979 or so when Iranians in the country were demonstrating against the Shah and some were arrested and there was a lawsuit and it went to the Supreme Court which gave, again IIRC, the same rights to anyone in the country, citizen or not. At least that’s the way I remember it and an attorney can certainly correct me as needed.
But what if it’s not just sixteen but the 50th or five hundredth or such and it’s been going on for years?
Might that change your perspective?
Or, just for effect, the hundred thousandth?
You are absolutely right. And I’m glad I’m not in the shoes of the man who confronted them or in the shoes of the people who, most likely, are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
Many of the illegals I’ve talked to don’t even try to come here legally as it’s easy to do it illegally and nearly impossible to do it legally. The obstructions to coming here legally are apparently nearly insurmountable. The new administration might change that.
Katar… you are clearly a product of urbania w/o perspective on simple survival
one could ask any resident of central or south america on how to handle tresspassers… w/o getting a pile of theoretical bs…
all answers relative to survival relate directly to the ground in question… key terrain… were the tresspassers taking the high ground? did this need to be mitigated? taking controlling the area necessary for water or feeding yourself, family, or stock? or your movement… if so… this need be addressed before one is a victim.
All battles are won before fought, only those who haven’t spilt or smelt blood don’t understand…
99.99%+ of people, in the US, don’t understand the reality of the surviving w/o the 24hr supermarket and the illusion of a 911 call safety net. You can delude yourself that a phone call will help… that the the “rule of law” matters.
When persons choose to ingnore the social contract, only violence can rectify this. I have seen , numerous times, sworn officers of several different Fed Agencies avoid their duty when armed oppostition was involved… don’t think you & yours bear any special consideration to the bureocrat. So… who’s gonna do it?
If you dont live in a border state, you cant possibly understand what ranchers and border towns have to deal with.
What you also dont hear is how many border state property owners end up shot at, killed, raped and robbed daily.
Being on the ass end of a war our government wont even attempt to fight will make people feel like their hand is forced.