[/li]Here comes the peer pressure!!! 
I corrected Mr. Hackathorn’s name. I do not know Mr. Hackathorn personally but I have watched his videos. He has very good points and I said nothing against using lights or lasers. Like I said, feel free to use them if you like.
That is all I will say in the context of this thread. 
How about being in a low-light situation where you need to identify a potential threat. The weapon mounted light will help improve almost every aspect of most any shooters ability in low-light situations.
Keeping a proper two handed grip on your pistol will surely help improve accuracy, as opposed to using a one handed grip to fire, and your support hand to activate a hand-held flashlight.
I am done arguing the point guys. This thread is about peer pressure, not lights, lasers, and Ken Hackathorn.
You think you’d get the hint and start carrying a light and laser 
You have to have your BS filter on, or you’ll easily get sucked into wallet draining trendy products of the week with diminishing returns.
It happens all the time. People will dump a good gun, light, mount, rail or optic even though it is perfectly functional but it doesnt get as much press or gun forum love.
We’ve all done it some point. Some people grow out it. Others dont.
Better is better, regardless of the press involved. It can easily go the other way, like I said reverse elitism.
As far as the lights, don’t confuse a discussion with peer pressure.
And, we need to keep the whole “it works for me” thing in context/perspective. To quote a Squad Leader I know, “I’ve got Privates that would love to take two gold plated Desert Eagles to combat”.
Will the “it works for me” argument really work there? How about I shoot it best applied to a Ruger MKII?
Granted those are extremes, but they illustrate my point well. I see guys purchasing substandard gear all the time, I’m talking LE/Mil/ or just gards like me.
They justify it with the cost, and “its good enough for me”… which is just BS. When your crap gear shits the bed on ya, and your f’in with it instead of watching your lane, then what?
Bob
You’re on ARFCOM? 
Random thoughts on the original subject of the thread…
If you’re swayed easily by peer pressure you’re never going to be happy. As soon as you ditch the light and laser, you’ll find a group that thinks they’re just peachy and will “pressure” you to put them back on (witness this thread). If you ditch your high-dollar 1911 for a plastic gun you’ll soon find yourself in a crowd of 1911 shooters making fun of your tupperware.
This is something you either learn or you don’t when you’re a kid. You decide you want to fit in, buy the cool-kid clothes and try to fit in, only to have some redneck in cowboy boots or some punk-rock kid in Doc Martens kick your ass for being a “preppy”. Either you learn to be yourself from this experience, and learn to stick up for being yourself, or you fold and become milquetoast (witness the suburbs).
Same thing happens here. Someone on M4C that’s into higher-end gear and training wanders over to THR where they plink and collect (and collect dust) and all of a sudden they’re “tacticool” and “militia-like”.
There’s no pleasing anyone but yourself.
The key, in my opinion, is knowing when to listen to the hive, or at least try their gear/way of doing things and not to get so caught up in being contrarian. A LOT of gun owners and shooters get caught up in being different, thinking they’re not caving to peer pressure or whatever, and in truth they are being just as strongly influenced by it. We have several of these types at our matches, and they consistently under-perform simply because they insist on being “different”.:rolleyes:
Indeed.
Some things are personal preference.
Some things are objective reality.
Knowing the difference is key.
[/li]
One could argue that all of those are reasons the quoted poster shouldn’t use a light/laser. 
Thats cold! Other then following links from this site, I havent been there since years and years ago, when there was a “what do you do for a living” thread, and the most prevelant answer was College student. These were usually the ones with the highest post count, and often posted things like “I’m hard on my gear”:rolleyes:
But, my point was/is, I’ve seen alot of guys ditch some good issued gear, to replace it with cheap offshore knockoff stuff, just to be different, or get what they percieve as better. What happens when they spend all their time screwing with a sling that wont stay adjusted properly, mag pouches that flop around, or loose mags, and other problems. THats bad enough in training, but when they are supposed to be responding as your team mate, maybe personal preference isn’t such a good thing. In fact its usually these types that ruin it for the rest of us, and we get stuck with org. issued stuff.
As far as keeping up with the Jones, that can go both ways also, how many have we seen struggle with lesser gear, just to be different, or “old school” etc.
For those that do well with simple gear, if the funds were available, do you not think they could do better with, better gear? Maybe maybe not.
But, agreed, trying to buy skill is not the answer.
Course we alwyas claim we are helping the economy, right?
Bob
Kaltblitz,
I know where you are coming from buddy. If we were absolutely imune to the influences and effects of other human beings’ opinions, many of us probably would not be on this board today…or on gun forums in general. I applaude you for your self reflection. I myself have been tempted and have had my resolve tested by the M&P and 1911 positive viewpoints on this forum…and I’m a Glock Fan big time. I’ve noticed that M4C members have very high regard from the M&P’s, and on Glocktalk…yep you guessed it, those members have a very high opinion of glocks.
The M&P has alot going for it, which many M4C members have highlighted, and I’ve been tempted…but at the end of the day I’ve shot glocks now for quite a while and I am confident and comfortable with my G19, even though the M&P9’s may be newer and better. In my opinion one of our most admirable qualities is the ability to adapt. Our Survival depends on it, be it in the interplay of social intercourse or in response to potentially catastrophic events. Point is…the mechanical reliability and caliber of cartridge, the things that I can’t effectively adapt to or influence to a great degree, my glock 19 takes care of. It goes bang, and it launchs a bullet that when effectively applied does its job as well as can be expected IMO. The other quirks of the gun, maintenance requirements (or the lack there of ;)) trigger, recoil characteristics, grip angle, packability…I can adapt to, and I have.
I’ve seen some incredible shooters do amazing things with sexy 1911’s, so much so that I’ve got one myself. And while I appreciate the historical significance and iconic status of this pistol, the real reason I own a 1911 is that I still wonder if there is any merit in the 1911 cool aid and own a 1911 to try it out myself from time to time. But for some crazy reason I still shoot my glocks better, probably because thats what I practice with the most. Doesn’t keep me from tinkering with my SA 1911 or shooting it for pure fun on the range or carrying it on the rare occasion. But I am guilty of being bit by bugs just like very many other people here, but fortunately my experience and reason always push me back to true…and for me the balance point is Glock.
In closing, I think the initial point of the first post of this thread was well quantified. We should be reflective on ourselves and our equipment, cognitive dissonance is required in order to effectively assess and improve. IMO the army has not taken the mass jump to the HK 416 or SCAR or etc…because we are looking to make a big evolutionary generation jump in Small Arms, not just to invest and commit to a newer and “marginally” (I know they are better but not “that” much) better system. We should do the same and evaluate and assess how that applies to us. If that big evolutionary improvement in YOUR shooting was brought about by finding a new pistol and reaching harmony with its quirks and characteristics let no one dissuade you. Conversely, remember that we can adapt to just about anything and at the end of the day (until the mechanisms and controls of firearms change) most all shooting can be reduced to front sight and trigger control.
Do what works for YOU, pick a platform that goes bang and get as proficient as possible with it. When adversity stares you down, take solice in that YOU believe in YOUR choices and YOUR training, your time behind the trigger will determin the rest.
Stay Safe,
GU
FYI: I’m also a huge believer in Lasers/RDS and Weaponlights. In my field we have several catch phrases:
“if you aint cheating you aint trying”
“always cheat…and always win”
It may be cheating…and off the beaten path from traditional spartan shooting philosophies, but For ME, there is not faster, easier, reliable way to make accurate hits under stress in low light than thru the judicious application of crimson trace lasers and surefire pistol lights.
Ginsu,
You brought up some great points. I too am most comfortable with the Glock and find your analysis of the interplay between self perception and practicality to be surprisingly insightful. Great post!
~Yeti
I see this in the cop world all the time. Folks want to keep up with the Jones’
I recently heard about a department in NJ that transitioned to Glock .40s, the sole reason for doing so was the chief didn’t want his department “to be the last department in NJ still carrying 9mms”.
I used to catch enormous crap from other folks at firearms classes when they saw we were carrying S&W 9mms as duty guns on my job. It was fun to consistently outshoot said folks.
I get crap now for carrying a 9mm, although it’s now a Glock. Somehow it’s a girly caliber with no “stopping power”, whatever that is?
I still take great pleasure in outshooting folks.
That’s just sad. Common, but sad.
I still take great pleasure in outshooting folks.
I’ve actually run into a problem teaching LE classes, though. More than once I’ve had an officer-student say (often behind my back … you’ll never make Detective if you can’t understand what electronic hearing protection is for): “Yeah, but he can only do that because he’s got a nine millimeter.” For a while I switched away from 9mm for that reason alone. Now I just do some of the drills with various students’ guns.
If you’ve ever trained with Paul Howe, he usually shoots a compact Glock .45 One of his reasons, is to prove to students, that you don’t need a, or his shooting abilities aren’t related to, a custom built 1911. It may help, but you sure don’t need it to shoot his standards.
Bob
Peer pressure isn’t a bad thing if it commits you to a higher standard. Pride in your equipment as well as your outfit can and does serve a purpose.
I’ve been to sporting clay shoots and seen over and under “field” guns ranging from $1.5 to $25K (some players own guns that go four times that, but not for competition). Was the high end unit worth it? The owner thought so. These guns are studies in absolute precision and will shoot the socks off any rack gun. If you haven’t seen it you won’t believe how accurate these shotguns are and how far they can reach out. These people are very competitive and demand the best of themselves and their equipment.
I think that can be said for carry guns as well. There are limits of course. I carry a G23 as my main gun. It serves it’s purpose and works every time. I have no illusions it is as inherently accurate a precission tuned weapon. Neither am I for that matter
A $25,000 gun in the hands of a two-bit shooter is still a two-bit gun.
Fidalgoman, I worked as a trapper at a sporting clays facility when I was in HS and college. It gave me the opportunity to see many shooters come in with outstanding overunder shotguns (more like works of art!). While many of these people did get what they paid for, I don’t think I ever saw one of them outshoot their gun. Most could have used a simple entry overunder and not outshoot it. Most of these guys have to much money to spend, and instead of spending it on lessons and training, they would rather spend it on something quite visable (peer pressure!)
I don’t know if it’s as much peer pressure as it is mindset. A good example: A while back someone on TOS posted a thread in GD asking if they should take a training course with Magpul Dynamics or spend that money on a new Sig pistol.
“The training is only a couple of days, but the Sig is something I could have forever!”
That mindset is at least a contributing factor.
So true, I attended a live pigeon shoot years ago and saw some of the nicest shotguns you will ever see along with the cars and stacks of cash at the poker tables. Really pissed the boys off when a friend of mine with a field grade Mdl. 12 outshot most of them. Talk about excuses…