I have gotten the long range ar bug, and have narrowed my choices down to building one of these rifles. Max range will be right around 600 yards, and either rifle will be wearing leupold mr/t 2.5-8 glass. Just looking for opinions from those who have experience with either rifle. Pros and cons of each?
One thing in my mind is the fact that the SDM type is about $300 cheaper to build, while offering equal or better performance.
Also with the SDM I would be able to swap to a carry handle and use a shooting sling for irons practice without using Buis’s.
I would be totally sold on the SDM except it is more of a designated marksmen rifle which seems to be just above the m16a4, while the Spr is another step above the SDM. Is this the case?
I shoot a Super SAM. The accuracy is out of this world for me. Here are the specs:
Specs:
20" upper built by MSTN with Lilja’s Super SAM (squad augmented marksman) barrel, ION bonded internals, M249 Vortex flash hider. The barrel was KG treated for maximum accuracy. I bought the last 20" Super SAM barrel Wes had in stock. Mine is the “last” S/S. Sad
Nightforce 5.5-22x56mm optic with Zero Stop, mil dot reticle and Milrad turrets on LaRue SPR mount
CMMG lower, G&R Tactical LPK
Geiselle 2 stage DMR trigger, properly tuned
Ergo ambi grip
LaRue / Harris Bipod combo and Magpul rail covers. This beauty has a date with a can of tan Krylon and some foilage.)
With 77 grain ammo it can easily group under 1/2 MOA, with a competent shooter behind the gun.
Not really sure if it counts as a sniper rifle either.
It’s more like a jack of all trades style weapon, which the undesignated Recce rifle being a bit more balanced towards CQB capability.
I love my SPR-ish build, but it’s not capable of the same accuracy as a dedicated bolt gun firing dedicated long range/precision calibers.
However, when comparing the SDM to SPR, the SPR style rifle usually wears more powerful glass, and depending on what you’re shooting at 600 yards, you want more power. I brought my SPRish rifle to a long range shoot, and while 600 yard hits on steel at 7x magnification were possible, I was definitely hoping for more power.
Military uses either Nightforce 2.5-10x24/32, or Leupold Mk4 3-9x36 scope with M2 or M3 turrets.
Thanks for this link. It has several good reads. Which ever type of rifle I go with will end up with a 2.5-8x leupold mr/t scope. I am also planning on running iron sights a good bit to practice shooting irons, so the scope will be in a larue mount. I guess the main question I have right now is, will the SDM be capable of equal accuracy with the SPR. I know the shooter is the main part, but just focusing on the rifles.
30 fps from going from 20" to 18" wont make any difference in accuracy. Another thing to consider is the AMU chambered barrel was developed completely around Mk262, while I have never heard of a designated marksman with a SAMR or SDMR getting Mk262. Also, the shorter length of the barrel is going to make the barrel stiffer, hence more inherent “accuracy.”
Well, the Army considers it a sniper rifle, not a DMR. Not sure what the other branches consider it, but Crane originally developed upon the SPR concept as a sniper rifle to complement the SR-25.
So the Colt Commando with an 11.5" barrel has superior accuracy? Will it make hits out to 500yds? Yes it will (according to the Pittsburgh SWATs results in Top Sniper II) but how much energy will it have remaining and will it maintain such consistent accuracy out to, say, 800yds?
The Najaf ‘sniper’ said his longest shot with his 20" was 792yds and that it was taking 4-7 hits to take the target down for good. I suspect more hits would be needed for the same target and probably more shots needed to get those hits (subsonic rounds, etc)
Nice to see Im not the only one that watches Top Sniper religiously.
I too went though the Army SDM school and we used a limited amount of 262 while most work was done with M855. While overseas however I have never seen a DM be supplied 262, its all channeled to the guys with mk12s. This is how my company did it and I’m not sure how others would do it. The longest I have engaged targets were about 600 meters where 262 is still supersonic. Obviously even 262 wont fragment at those ranges but I suspect from reports from spotters that the tumbling effect is still effective to put down targets.
The SPR and SAM-R should be no more accurate than the SDM-R given the same manufacturer of barrel. The only differences in regard to sniping is that it doesn’t have a sound suppressor and has a 4X Trijicon ACOG instead of a higher powered Leupold or NightForce scope. If you aren’t going to make an exact clone (not use an ACOG), then this doesn’t matter.
Dustin
you know how they say mission drives the gear… im just wondering what you expect out of the weapon. make a list of YOUR needs and expectations, and build YOUR rifle to meet them. I think clones are cool, and ive met lots of guys who build them to say “this is the exact rifle the super-awesome dudes carry”. thats neat and all, but as far as preformance goes, you are holding yourself back. If i wanted a MK12, I honestly wouldnt build one exactly like a replica. I would build one to accomplish the same mission, with better parts. like a nighforce in place of Mark 4, etc. The whole DM thing confuses me to this day, having watched the SAMR come out, go away, MK12 come out, the entire Marine corps field the ACOG on A4s, DM training become standard, trickle skills down to novice rifleman. i regard any lance with a pump under his belt, a expert riflemans badge and a ACOG equiped A4 a DM. i watch DM schooled marines put ACOGS on their MK12s, and roll that way the entire deployment. but then again we get issued M855 for the mk12s, and then blast cases of MK262 at the range at the end of deployment doing CQC drills. some guys carry half greentip, half Mk262. I like to ask everyone about their system, and logic behind it. I never argue with results. A daythat never will be forget is the day i watched a Cpl drop a insurgent at 600 yds with a A4 shooting greentip. its has served as a lesson that most weapons are better then the shooter, and shot placement is critical. perhaps the most critical aspect of all. i guess im trying to say look at the military for some guidance, just not the final solution. sorry for the rant.
^^^^ I will second that rant to the nth degree^^^^
Earlier I was just about to make a reply in this thread cause it hits on a pet peeve I guess you could say of mine but I knew my words would be controversial to some like they have been in the past.
Bottom line is that at the end of the day a skilled AR builder with deep pockets can far exceed any MK12 clone and def. any SDMR clone in every aspect of a gun.
The SDMR and MK12 are both yesteryear guns in my book in terms of current cutting edge weaponry…In a world that has so much fantastic cutting edge AR kit as we currently do, it’s hard to think that guns built with heavy doses of ARMs, yesteryear glass and rail systems, and half the time non adjust cumbersome a1/a2 stocks, can compete with a talented AR builder with deep pockets.
Buy a true recce and be done with it, just my 2cents:)
If the intent is to build a clone, then have at it. If it’s not just to build an exact clone, then we can look to the Military. See what the intended mission requirements was for each branch of the Military and look at the end result to see how they intended to fulfill the need. As civilians, we can then look at what’s currently available and modify accordingly to suit individual needs.
The beauty of being a civilian is that the only real limiting factor is finances.
The 600 yd shot by the Corporal with an A4 only goes to reenforce the importance of skill and marksmanship.
Running a swan sleeve on a pri tube or even worse a non bridged receiver/rail like the mod 1 have on a gun built for precision is yesteryear when monolithic technology currently exists.
Depending on optics/mount you could really be behind the times packing an old leupy w. some ARMs rings when NF, USO and SB exist in the market place. Depending on your irons, you could be packing ARMs buis. I do not think I need to prove there are much better stocks than an A1 or A2.
Personally, I like several barrels more than a Douglas like a Rock or Krieger. I could keep nit picking and I stand by my original statement from above.
You said you could make one better in every aspect but you only changed the aesthetics, things to your personal preference, and the length of pull. The important things like accuracy and reliabilty are no better regardless of what parts you use (monolithic rail and Mike Rock barrel included).
Dustin
