No need for mister…
I’ve clarified my point, and I believe we’ve discussed this before.
As you can see, many believe that it is necessary to learn to use iron sights FIRST I disagree. You can learn to shoot proficiently with any kind of sight.
Should you know how to use iron sights, absolutely. Do you need to know that, before anything else, or an optic, absolutely not.
Bob
No…only relaying where my information/experience was coming from. I appreciate your service.
I don’t see how you, or anyone else, can say this.
Here it is, distilled to it’s essence. My HD rifles are all iron sighted because it’s either impractical to mount an optic sight or because I cannot yet afford one. As confident as I am in the use of iron sights, I hope to have a dedicated HD carbine with an optic or RDS
We have. I’ve come to understand your position. Though I don’t agree completely, that discussion helped me realize there are more points where I agree with you than I first realized. It also brought forth important points for me to ponder
First off, settle people :sarcastic:
On hammonje’s first post (mainly the first few sentences) I agreed with him. Then I kept reading.
I have to say that learning irons is mandatory from all shooters, not that is hast to be first, but it sure as hell should be done before you even get off the bench.
I teach Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun merit badge at a Boy Scout camp, and I can’t tell you the amount of times I have a father son combo come up telling us instructors how good of a shot their son is. Not that being proud is bad, but that’s getting off topic. Usually the first question I ask is, “on what rifle and what kind of sights?” The answer is usually some bolt action .22 of some random make topped with a 3-9 power scope. Then I see the scout at the bench with the camp 22s we provide, getting less than satisfactory groupings. I see the father standing a few feet away wondering where he went wrong.
I have seen many cases like this where a few sessions of one on one coaching resolve the matter and the skills they already know begin to show.
Where learning irons FIRST is not always the best route, the skill should be mastered before the shooter leaves the bench.
From what I understand the best HD setup would be a light, red dot or other similar sight with BUIS, with the BUIS as a fall back if something goes south with your optic. My idea is, if your backup is a skill you haven’t mastered, why is it your backup? (Not that any of you have said DON’T bother with irons. it’s just my idea)
So my main point is red dots are fantastic tools, but irons (and all other fundamentals) should be mastered before you bother with any sort of defensive weapon.
Where you guys picked up group tactics on this topic I’ll never know :laugh:
Lots of craziness over something that is so basic.
I’m proficient with both my irons and my Aimpoint. Does it matter which one I learned first?
Is there any reason that I would need a T1 over an H1, if I don’t use NVDs?
Nope.
Unless you go diving with your rifle, no.
Hammonje,
No need for appreciation, my service was long ago. The studs over there right now, deserve alot more praise!
Mistwolf,
No worries!
Coyote Hunter,
Thanks I always appreciate when relatively new members tell us all how to act:sarcastic:
What bench?
I ask this, and it may be considered off topic, but I consider it a central theme to most of these types of discussions.
I came to this board, long ago, because its central premise was the serious use of the M4 carbine, unlike other web forums, that allow silly BS type posts and info, this one was to be kept on the straight and narrow.
While everyone is welcome, it was not meant primarily for High Power shooter, plinkers, gun owner(as opposed to shooters), and Call to duty warriors.
I’m not sure what arcahic standards and TTP’s the boy scouts teach, nor do I care.
It is easy to stand back, and claim we must spend more time teaching the fundamentals, iron sights, position shooting, etc etc etc.
The reality is, when you are prepping young men and women to serve as Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen & Coastguardsmen, or LEO’s, there is a finite amount of training resources available.
It isn’t all about shooting, its also about moving and communicating. Its also about any number of occupation specific skills. Land mines, Land Nav, communications, IFF, PT, recoup time, first aid, etc etc, then there is the ever present touchy feely mandatory type briefs.
LEO’s have to learn law, statutes, Use of force options, driving, etc etc.
You’d be surprised at the stuff I have to know at my current job. Try rad con dress out and decon.
as it stands now, it takes me 4 days to qual on every weapon system we deploy, and a few other tactical skills.
I think you see what I’m getting at.
Whatever gets me or my fellow operators trained to an acceptable level of performance, for the most likely scenarios, is going to allow me to move on to other necessary training.
Do I wish we had more time to truly master shooting skills? Land Nav w/ &w/o GPS/compass? PT? everything else? Sure I do, but as they say, there’s the world as we wish it was, and the world as it is, guess which one we live in?
I’m sure Hammon will be happy to know, I learned to shoot in HS, with an Anshutz supermatch rifle, shooting smallbore 3 position competition.
When I got to basic, I figured I was set. Unfortunately, most of those skills go out the window, when you are straddling 2 pieces of rebar, in a deep upturned section of sewer pipe, being used as a fighting position, leaning over ragged out and 1/2 empty sandbags, trying to find the 300mtr target covered by overgrown grass.
Also consider the myriad of other situations I’ve alluded to in my previous posts. The only thing that might remain remotely consistent, is your grip on the gun and hopefully your trigger press, get that right, and your home free.
Sorry for the rant, but it helps to understand where most of us are coming from.
Bob
No worries, I was just trying to throw my “knowledge” into the mix.
Rob & Bob
That might be my fault. I thought Bob was saying learning irons was BS. I understand now he was saying you need to learn them but you do not need to learn them first. I agree with him. Having to teach my son was enlightening.
I think we all need to think about where people are coming from. For a long time I was convinced rails, vertical fore grips, lasers and optics were all toys. I bought my first rail for an A2 carbine because I wanted to mount a light.
I was taught to shoot a certain way and I brought that perspective and those prejudices along with me. Part of it was a cocky Boot Marine attitude. I belived all the hype. I shot expert with my M16 A2 and I had open sights a sling and training to explain it. Part of that attitude is a good thing. I was completely confident in my ability to fight with my weapon. I lived with it and felt naked w/o it. This is my rifle there are many like it but this one is mine… all that good stuff.
If I grew up learning about weapons from my WWII Vet Dad and a Vietnam Vet I would I am sure have certain likes and dislikes because of it.
All of my long guns are locked in my safe and their switches are off. When I take them to work they are turned on and left on.
I have two Glock pistols to deal with bumps in the night at home. I have three small kids so I lock up most of my guns .
Crud, no more underwater IDPA I guess. 
Revolver guys know the answer to this question. You learn to use irons before you get an AR. You learn to use irons about the same time you learn to ride a bicycle. Sad to say, I think small children learning to shoot is a thing of the past for the most part.
Everyone is getting wound a little tight here. Deeps breaths and maybe cold adult beverages are needed.
The bottom line is you must do what works for you. For 95-99% of the shooters out there, they would be selling themselves short to not run an RDS. Irons only are fine but a RDS is a force multiplier.
FWIW Bob’s creds are sound and he speaks from experience. Studying a subject and doing it are two completely different things. Otherwise everyone that owns a Magpul DVD is combat ready with an AR, pistol, and shotgun while utilizing a helicopter.
For perspective, I was at a free public range some weeks ago and two fellows couldn’t hit a 26 inch square at 7 yards with a Glock with irons.:sad:
Bob
Looks like we were typing at the same time reference where folks are comming from. You beat me to the post button. It musta been cause you had your RDS on. 
How about this:
You can have just irons.
You can just have an optic.
You can have both.
Different things work for different people. I imagine that those used to running optics as their primary sighting system would look at me with my irons only and shake their head. I suppose they think I am handicapping myself. To be honest I would be handicapping myself with a red dot since they blur. The best of them, the Aimpoint, looks like a comet streaking through the scope. At 50 yards I don’t see much of the target from all the distortion. I can turn down the scope to lessen it but then when I run into brighter light the dot disappears. So I run irons on all my guns and don’t bother turning on the EOtech with the issued rifle. It helps that I went through a couple of instructor schools and I have access to the range to practice.
Now if you are one of those luck ones to be able to run optics, enjoy. But remember to practice with those irons. You should try to make sure you can hit as well as with your BUIS as you can your primary. Why? Because if your primary sight goes down for any reason in the middle of a fight you better know how to use your irons as well as you primary.
So in the end in my opinion it comes down to training. Train with everything you plan to bring to a fight. Got a light on your gun? When was the last time you trained with it? Ever try it in your house? Ever try it out under street lights? A forest?
Got an optic on your rifle? Do you train with it?
Got irons on your rifle? Do you train with them?
If you don’t train with what you have you might as well not have it.
I would say have both and be proficient in using both. Cant go wrong with that.