'Just' irons?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
61

Here is a link to a post by USMC03. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4209 I thought it was a sticky. I had a tough time finding it. I think USMC03 brings up some of the points shared by the irons only crowd here in this post. Below is USMC03’s info:

[i]"By self defense, I’m going to guess that the place you are most likely to use an AR15 is in defense of your home.

    For a home defense carbine I would suggest a simple carbine with  [b]iron sights[/b] and a  [b]white light[/b].  This is not the "coolest" answer, but it is probably one of the most practical.

Most guys don’t deal with violent criminals on a daily basis and often times on the internet posts like this often generate more responses that are based on “theory” rather than responses that closely follow circumstances that a armed civilian is likely to find himself in.

   That being said, I see a lot of threads like this, and most of the responses are based on theory and [b]best case scenerios[/b].  Any fighter (boxer, soldier, cop, civilian defending themselves) should always train for the  [b]worst case[/b] scenerio, [b]not[/b] the best case.  As the saying goes, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.  

  If as an armed civilian you are unlucky enough to be the intended victim of a violent crime, you are most likely going to be involved in a defensive or reactive fight, not an offensive fight.  The criminal, much like an animal of prey will pick the intended victim, the date, the time, and the place for the attack.  

 As a victim of a violent crime, you will almost always find yourself dealing with the situation on the criminals terms.  You will be reacting to his actions.  As is proof in the OODA loop, actions are always quicker than reactions.

If a criminal kicks in your front door to committ a home invasion robbery, he isn't going to sit in the front living room like a prom date and wait for you (the victim) to turn on your optic, put on your multi-cam plate carrier, and get ready for the fight.  He is there it dominate you and to control you and to get what he wants (steal something of monitary value, take a human life, exact revenge, etc)  In most cases you are barely going to have enough time to roll out of bed and grab your gun (much less turn on an optic, mess with a sling, insert a mag and chamber a round, etc) before the bad guy is in the same room as you.  Crimes like this happen VERY quickly."[/i]
62

Sounds like an excuse to buy a S&W M&P15-22:laugh:

Good luck.

Bob

63

I’ve read 3 pages of this topic so far. Wow…

Some good thoughts so far. And I think some may need to stop for a minute and take a deep cleansing breath!

I think one must learn the basic principles of marksmanship first. Sight alignment is just one of those basic principles. What type of sight is being aligned? I don’t think the world will end if a red dot optic is used at first. It eases the learning curve as it’s simpler. It allows the student to concentrate on trigger control, breath control, ect.

I do strongly believe an individual should learn how to proficiently use iron sights at some point.

To the OP,

I’ve used just irons for a long time. Still do with my agencies guns (only because there is no option to add optics to department owned weapons). I no longer do so for my personally owned guns.

I am very proficient and effective shooting my AR in a defensive/home protection senerio. But I am much more effective when using a RDO such as the Aimpoint T-1. There are 3 pages of reasons why a RDO is a benefit for self defense.

I can not think of any senerio within CONUS where as a LEO or a civilian protecting my self that I would need to take a 600-800 yd shot at an individual. Kinda tough for me to ID an individual as a threat at that distance.

Are RDO’s expensive? Hell yes they are! About 1/2 the cost of a decent AR. If the gun was only for plinking and playing, then I might have a hard time justifying the cost. But for a gun I plan on using for defense of my self and my family, the added advantage is worth the cost to me.

Bottom line for me is simple. I own a bone stock Colt 6920 that forced to, I could effective use to to protect myself. I also own a Colt 6920 that has a light and a Aimpoint T-1 on it. I can use this gun more effectively than the first to protect myself.

I have run through my agencies low light “shoot house” with both guns. The results were very “enlightening” to say the least!

When I consider the probability that any incident I would become involved in would occur in low light, under 50 yds and be dynamic adn fast paced, then it’s easier for me to justify the cost of a red dot optic. My life’s worth trading one less gun in the safe for the funds for a RDO.

64

Thank you!!!

Common sense is not really all that common in these threads.

I have an Aimpoint on my home defense rifle, but I learned how to shoot the thing analog.

I did not think that I would be popping 800M in Atlanta, GA. Just that it can be done with irons, but not with a red dot. Irons are more precise and dope can be established for certain conditions. That’s were a log comes in. Take notes of how your rifle performs in different circumstances.

A rifleman is competent in alll scenarios, not limiting himself to one area. Learn them all and be confident.

65

I meant the M4 Aim Point. Yes I want a S&W 15-22, our PD has one and I can check it out for shooting on the cheap. It is a great little gun and the adjustible stock is a huge plus for kids.

66

Did you just read 7-8? or apply it?

I learned small unit tactics in 12 years as an 11Bravo with the 82nd Airborne and 25th Infantry Divisions. Applying 7-8 in every terrain, Desert, Mountain, Jungle, MOUT. I also have more then a few friends, coworkers and acquaintances that have taught and attended Ranger School, the premier small unit tactics and leadership school in the world.( I failed the swim test 5 times:( ) Everything we did was straight out of the Ranger handbook. IIRC the 7-8 has been superseded.
Add to that, a attending a Federal agency’s Special Response Team course, am a current member of a SRT, I’ve also attended the SWAT course of one of the most active and proficient swat teams in the country. Along with a sundry of other training courses.

The Preferred method was a triangle, three elements provided 360 security.

Bob

67

you’re contradicting yourself again.

are we engaging for defensive purposes at close range (let’s call it under 50, since you seem fixated on that from the classes you took… or didn’t take… which is it again?) or at distance? If defensive use of firearms is the goal, what’s the point about meeting your definition of being a rifleman?

68

Answers in green,

ETA: You really need to find that thread by the Wounded Warrior

Bob

69

Nice. You have a pdf of the Ranger Handbook. I would like a copy to peruse.

Is the triangle element part of a larger defensive foramtion, say at the platoon level??? Who’s watching the back trail??? I just cannot wrap my head aorund how one intends to survive in a combat situation with 3 people. In Vietnam most LRP teams had at least 6-12 individuals. One person is strictly relegated to the comms and someone has to watch the back trail.

I would be most interested in learning about these more novel tactics before I begin to read history concerning novel conflicts.

70

I’m not sure where small units came into this, at all…

Anyhow…

USMC03 then goes on to list different optics and his experiences on them, indicating that he had already been using Aimpoints for years at the time of the post on his rifles. I’m not sure how you can say irons are what’s practical for HD, then say on your HD gun you use a RDS–I thought they weren’t practical? I think irons are practical for HD the same way a shotgun is–they are much less expensive while maintaining the most important aspect of a HD gun, reliability. If you can’t afford a RDS I’m certainly not going to tell you to go without a gun in your home, though.

The whole thing about being prepared when things go bump in the night is a nonstarter of an argument, IMO. I keep my Aimpoints turned on and the irons up if they fold on any HD gun when applicable. If I pick up my gun and the battery in my Aimpoint has died, I’m at the same place I’d be without one. Next to the AR-15 by my bed I have a solo magazine laying there ready to be inserted in the gun and a bandoleer style 3 magazine pouch made by US Grunt Gear. If I only have time to pick up the magazine and shove it in and run the charging handle then so be it. If I have time to get the bandoleer on and gun’s sling over my head, even better.

I definitely agree with the part of USMC03’s post about not having all the time in the world. I think at the most I’d consider a battle belt for home defense, but those still take a good bit of time to get on.

71

Never been a soldier or seen any combat. I would always defer to those that did. That’s why I asked. Probably could have toned it down some, but anytime you make a point that is different from the dogma someone wants to jump all over you. No biggie as I learn from the discussion.

I get the history bug from a D-day veteran, 27 yr US Army CSM grandad and a Vietnam War 2 tour father. I would’ve loved to serve, but they wanted me to go to school and hence I am now a molecular virologist/Professor of Pediatric Infectious Diseases. Been a firearms enthusiast/history buff for most of my life.

And you??? What are your creds???

I use my shoty as my primary go to weapon in the house anyway. No need to rack, just place off safe and squeeze. I assume being awaken in the night I am not going to be 100% mentally fit anyway. I need the spread to make my hits count. My home defense rifle is in the closet with the Aimpoint on and a magazine in the rifle. Rack, take off safe, and roll. That shouldn’t take too long if my alarm gives me any warning.

72

and any time someone has a position they can’t defend they want to brush off the counter argument as “dogma”. :wink:

It’s easy to accuse the other side of “dogma” and “group think” and holler at them “but you’re not a soldier” when logic and reason, and experience to draw on, fail you.

73

The topic of this thread, regardless of small unit tactics (theory or reality) is “just irons”. Ultimately what we have is very few who would advocate for the use of iron sights only on a carbine intended for fighting, especially when better, and faster, options are available. Is the optic as necessary as the light? No. Is it still an invaluable tool and a force multiplier in the right hands? I believe it absolutely is.

The topic of which to train on first came up, and things got derailed, but the core topic at hand is one that all but the most intentionally anachronistic (often to their own detriment) agree on. Even the majority who are running irons-only at the moment concede that they are either doing so out of a desire to learn the basic carbine or due to budgetary constraints.

74

I have over 24 years of doing this, after that long you start to pick up on things, and realize anything you “think up”, has already been thought of, and succeded or failed. Trust me, you don’t have any special insight on this.

Bob

75

What is it you said…“Step Up” well raise your hand a few times and they’ll give you your very own Ranger handbook. But, you don’t need it, you’ve read of 3K books on the subject.

76

I don’t see it as dogma when I have proven to myself that a RDS is significantly faster going through a course than using just iron sights. I’m talking entire seconds. Is it realistic that I will have 5+ home intruders? No. Does making a shot 0.2 seconds faster matter? Hell yes it could.

I think where you’re differing from other peoples’ opinions is your use of a rifle. You are clearly (from posts in this thread anyhow) focused on accuracy and precision. Losing 1/2 or 1 MOA going to a red dot doesn’t matter one whit to me, if I even lose that much accuracy. If I want to make a longer distance shot, I can always just flip up my irons–or use my Recce type rifle that has a 1-4x Burris on it.

I’d mention something about shotgun patterns inside a house, but there are already enough side arguments in this thread :laugh:

Anyhow, the rifles I have ONLY irons on are essentially range toys. They will make serviceable combat guns in a pinch, but it’d be a pretty bad pinch if I’m resorting to using one of them, as I haven’t done much drilling with them and don’t have much range time on any.

77

These things go off topic because someone always makes a ridiculous or just plain incorrect comment. Allowing it to go unanswered, only perpetuates it.

-years ago, I taught Jumpmaster school, nomenclature was immensely important. If a student asked a question and used wrong nomenclature, I was to correct it, if I didn’t, I was no better, and was made to pay for it.-

No one said iron sight’s are not viable or usable. Obviously, we have been using them for a long time, same as muzzleloaders, clubs, swords, etc. When something better came along, we moved on.
Red Dot sights offer a lot of advantages, with few drawbacks, less and less as the sights get better and better. Most of the drawbacks can be mitigated by good TTP’s and PCI’s.

I’ve trained with USMC03, so I wont poo-poo his thread. But, his main point is time to get into action,not accuracy, being a true marksman, reliability, etc.
With an aimpoint T/H1 you have a battery life in the 10’s of thousands, why turn it “off” aimpoints are never really off.
If your rifle is intended for immediate use,why have lens covers on them? Why would you not change batteries long before you need to?Why have the mag out of the gun? etc. etc. If you go for your gun, and the sight is dead, covers are on, or its turned off, that’s your fault. If you can’t trust yourself to ensure your optic is in good working order, how do you trust yourself to ensure your carbine is in good working order?

If you can’t afford a good optic, oh well, make do with the irons.
If you have an eyesight issue, oh well, make do with the irons.

But don’t sit here and pretend that optics of any kind are useless, tacti-cool, crap from shills, unreliable, etc.

And certainly, don’t insinuate that if you use an Aimpoint you are not a “real marksman”, whatever that is.

As Pat Rogers says, we need to get over the romance of aligning iron sights, and get on with the business of killing our adversaries.

Bob

78

It’s actually more than 3k. Not only on the subject of small unit tactics, but you pick it up after that many. They obviously evolve over time as things are learned and weapons evlove as well. Ever read Chuikov’s memoires about the seige of Stalingrad??? Probably not…doesn’t apply to the present, right. He was the first to effectively employ storm group tactics in built up areas using modern weaponry. It’s a great read. Mostly defensive, but also used in counterattack.

I got a copy from soemone here already. Thanks though.

79

Mr. Moran, when you state that learning iron sights first is total BS, it comes across as, “why bother to learn iron sights?”

It doesn’t jive with your claim that you never said one shouldn’t learn the fundamentals of shooting iron sights.

I do not make the claim you are deliberately misleading or any other such nonsense. Merely to give feedback as to how your choice of words are coming across to me

80

:lol:

Your killin me. No I didn’t have time to read obscure books on military history, I was to busy diggin a fighting position and actually executing small unit tactics.

Are you really trying to say reading over 3K books on the subject, is the equivalent or superior, to actually doing it??

:suicide:

And I wont need a NPOA for that.

Bob