Brilliantly blunt.
But if you read what he wrote, he makes the implication that he doesn’t need training because he doesn’t think he’ll need the gun.
I on the other hand, enjoy taking classes as I ALWAYS learn something new.
I do too.
Thanks for reminding me to make my hotel reservation for my Randy Cain class next month.
I simply gathered that he has had a lot of training and doesn’t need any more.
Anyone that believes that they don’t need a gun to protect themselves [tinfoil] or overthrow the Govt[/tinfoil] is a fool.
C4
Which seems to apply to the genesis of this topic as well, doesn’t it?
It could if people are getting wrapped around the axle.
C4
This thread had been enjoyable with all the directions it has taken.
I am an average guy, who likes to shoot and have fun. I’ve had a few good training courses, and a few bad ones. My goals for these are usually to have fun, and learn skills that I am likely never going to need.
If I had more time to devote to shooting, I would. But I simply don’t have as much time to try things out for myself. End result is that I would be years behind where I am now if I didn’t have as much access to 2nd hand information. I take 2nd hand info at face value, look for trends, and buy things that are recommended as being good and high quality by high quality people. The technical discussions are of most interest to me for this reason.
Thanks to people like Grant, Paul of BCM, and many folk here and on other sites I read, I now have a couple of good guns that I probably wouldn’t have had, or known about otherwise.
The value for me in this is that it lets me have more fun, with my gear and the time I have than I would be able to do otherwise. So, yeah, I am getting a free ride/shortcut that many people have spent tons of time, thousands of dollars to get to roughly the same place. I fully recognize that while I might be at the same place, I don’t have the same experience or skill development level as others there.
Also, I take training courses for fun mostly. Now I realize that bad things can happen, I had a good friend shot and killed in a mugging a while back. I see the likelyhood of my having to fall back on the training in my toolkit somewhat unlikely in my daily life in the US. If I end up in a place where this happens, I will be better off than most, but not as well off as some.
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
As everyone is human, mistakes are often made. People need to get over themselves and realize that it is just a “internet” gun forum and nothing more.C4 …
I challenge that to a certain degree when I open this forum my commeradery with all M4C members is important to me and I will act accordingly. Besides that fuckin’ jigglin’ authenticator sign on password bastard pissed me off so bad I called (you) Grant to help me log on…eyesight or lack of it with my nose touching the screen and $600.00 reading glasses I still couldn’t make out what it was/is. Where else could I call and get help ? Dont bring up the pics OKAY ?? LOL
I am a member of ‘just another internet gun forum’ in a different Galaxy many light years away, however I’d like to think that M4C-‘we’ are at least
a cut above the all consuming petty drivel and picture posting that occurs on the Dark Side of the Moon. I feel M4C is close, NOW, to what was happening on the Dark Side of the Moon 4-5 years ago. AR guru’s were plenty and answered questions honestly it didn’t matter how many ‘hits’ the thread had it didn’t matter if it seemed a stupid question if it pertained to repair maintenence or how to be a better marksman the question got answered (before MODS in the FEEDBACK SECTION were hiring ‘Hit Men’ to maintain some level of order).
Thats why I opened that site on my computer half a dozen years ago, not to ultimately see people rub what they have (or in reality what they dont have) in the face of the guy who don’t but to discuss whatever with intellegent like minded individuals which that site seemed to overflow with, at that time.
Several ‘original’ squad members of the ‘Big Shadow’ went their own way and reassembled here and I feel with mutual effort and consideration M4C will survive longer with integrity as an Internet Gun Forum.
.2 cents
Michael
LOL That’s funny. Now that you mention it, I do remember thinking “Hmmm… I think I can tell what it is.”
This forum seems to have everything you can need. What strikes me is that you say you do want to be like TOS. I hear every bad detail about that place. But their are a few people here that do the same things.
Not all of us have the expendable income to train or buy the latest and greatest equipment. But their are a few training snobs on this site. These people have the money, thats great. They even buy handguns like they grow on trees. I do not believe they should turn up their nose at those of us who just get by. If they want to fund a Pat Rogers class for me I would gladly accept it. Otherwise keep it in your pants and stop ragging on the 98% of us who make do with what we can. I guess what I am getting at is turning your nose down turns off alot of people.
mike
I know what you mean, although I enjoy the discussion and the occasional debate. I have some what given up on the Internet, just tired of being told I don’t know what I am doing.
In regards to training, I think the point most are trying to make, is that instead of buying that second or third AR, one is better off spending the money on a good training class for what they do have. Its better to only have one good handgun and one good carbine, and put your money from there on into a good training class or two first, then mags, ammo, and followuo range time/practice thereafter, vs buying another gun.
First off let me say thank you for all the wisdom I have learned off this board. I have read hours and months and maybe this is my second post. I tend to learn before I stick my dumb foot in my mouth. As I is I used to think Bushy made one of the best rifles as I had luck with one. I’ve had two Colts that were problem childs and sold them. Now after what I’ve read on here I know I could have fixed them. Point being I have really learned alot by people that really know and do. Unlike people on other boards that proclaim their intelligance and berate yours. Hence why I don’t post much. But here I’ve learned what really matters and I can build my own quality gun with the right parts for same price as a just as good as gun. I hate spending money on junk and take pride in tools that work and work right. As I use the heck out of them. I tend to shrug it off when the gunshop/range/gunboard commando tells me my Les Baers 1911 are a ripoff because their R.I.A. 's are just as good at half the price. Don’t have the heart to tell them it’s more like 1/6 th and I buy my components in no less than 5000 at a time. More than most of them will shoot a 1911 in a lifetime. One of the first posts I read was by Pat Rodgers saying what he thought of Bushy and RRA. I thought I had heard that name before and started reading. Boy, was I schooled. I live for knowledge and was hooked. I even read arfcom. But this site was clearly superior in knowledge of people and class. Many thanks to Grant and GotM4 plus many others with attually giving quality info to us unlearned. My new rifle is waiting to be build as soon as the lower gets here. I’ve bought almost every part off people on this board. Now to get to a training coarse as soon as possible. I’ve stressed my 1911’s knowledge and left out my rifles. Well, enough rambling. Thanks to everyone for sharing their wisdom. It’s nice not have to read page after page from 15 year olds or 500 pound SEALS.
Yep, I agree completely. If I was on a tight budget, I would absolutely take a basic $1200 AR and a basic $500 Glock and take all the classes I could.
I find it ironic when people tell me they can’t take afford to take a class, but then bust out with their latest $3k rifle or their latest $2k high-end 1911.
I have found that, by and large, the classes I take at Southern Exposure wind up costing me right about at $1k. Classes are usually around $400-$500, lodging is another $150, and ammo and incidentals puts it up to the $1k mark (I don’t count food since I have to eat no matter where I am).
Thanks for your post! We all start somewhere and it is sad when people make fun of others that are trying to learn.
Another nice thing about M4C, is that the members that are experts in their field, are clearly defined with the title “Industry Professional.” This lets you know that the info coming from them is GTG. So many times on other forums, you don’t know who is who in the zoo and end up getting advice from an airsofter.
C4
Training = knowledge. It is that simple. If you don’t have a lot of money then you save your pennies like the rest of us (cut back on beer/smokes and fast food). Instead of buying a new weapon, you buy a class instead. So there are many ways to save up for a class (which usually only run between $300-$500).
I do not “snub my nose” at people that cannot afford training. I snub my nose at people that believe they don’t need it or say they cannot afford it, but buy a new gun every year and indulge in the above hobbies (smoking, drinking , etc).
C4
Grant, Harv, et al,
I think you both make excellent points about training and the Internet.
You know you have read too many posts when you overhear a guy talking at the range and realize you’ve read his posts online! The conversation is always about how "GI"s did this with the 1911 and so-and-so carried an M14 in Nam or some other such nonsense.
Where I am going with this is that it isn’t about the gear. It is your mindset and skill.
The people in the Warsaw ghetto didn’t think they’d be turned into slaves and fire-bombed/gassed to death in 1938.
The people waiting to turn left on Dolly Madison (CIA) didn’t think they were in a bad neighborhood when that AKM carrying nut job opened up on them. You can’t choose where the battle will be, it will come to you.
The bond traders at the World Trade Center didn’t think they were in a bad neighborhood when the airliner hit the building, did they? You can’t rely on authorities, the people who ignored them and left the building lived.
Ronald Reagan had the best personal detail on the planet and it didn’t stop him from getting hit.
I could go on with examples but I think many of you already agree. Maybe training is a waste of money, but it is a better waste of money than a bunch of gear that you didn’t have with you when the situation happened.
Those that don’t are entitled to their opinions and that is fine with me. 
M_P
The internet gun forums that I participate or just lurk in has given me the opportunity to discuss my hobby with the whole spectrum of the user base.
New guy, first centerfire rifle and its an AR wants to “make it better” but doesn’t really know what that statement means.
General user, Has owned and worked on firearms for years, likes to tinker and wants to “make it better” thinks this means best of all goodies put on it and taken to range.
Hobbiest, is the level that most seem to reach, the AR is the thing they do to enjoy themselves. This translates to building, buying, swapping, and tinkering to “make it better” so that they (we) can have an informed opinion on most issues on the platform, and make sure that it goes bang instead of click so that our time of study does not appear wasted.
Professional user, for them the AR really is the tool that the above user states it is, but really doesn’t believe. Needs to know the system as well as possible in order to “make it better” so the trigger being pulled always produces a bang, not a click, this is to make sure they and their teammates are the ones walking away and the BGs are on the ground.
What I have noticed is that the last two level of users are beginning to realize, or have realized. That the upgrades for the gun should come after upgrades for the brain. This is something that I am slow on doing.
If it were not for the internet I would not have realized all the training opportunites that exist. I would be stuck reading the gun rags, and hitting gunshops trying to find the real deal who could give me pointers. Which is a search akin to the needle in a haystack task.
In conclusion, it is my opinion that gun forums are good for the gun industry as a whole, and allows those who want to advance thier knowledge base though work as well as reading a chance to find the next step to take.
Grant, I was not directing that to you. You are GTG. I understand where you are coming from. I would seek training before I bought another rifle. The problem is I barely afforded the rifle I have now. Sometimes I cannot afford ammo. I have a decent middle class job that gets me by. But recent health issues in the last 3 yrs have put any extra money out of commission. My point was more directed at the white collar guys who have no spending limits and lots of disposable income. Some of them have berated others on the lack of training which is not fair due to the economic differences. If my income tax check has any leftovers I might pursue a carbine class.
Thanks, Mike
I don’t think anyone has berrated anyone else. Even if they have though, maybe if they do it enough something will sink in.
I still remember my uncle smacking me in the back of the head when I made a safety mistake the first time he took me shooting. That lesson sunk in too.
Oh, and there’s plenty of blue collar guys on my jobsite that make more money than some of the white collar guys. But you know the old joke about construction workers; whether you pay them $1000 this Friday or $100, by next Friday they’ll be dead broke.:eek:
I didn’t think it was directly at me, but I do push training a lot so I thought I would respond. I understand your position and wan’t directing my comments towards you either.
C4