My aging eyes would no doubt benefit from a quality RDS on my CCW pistol, a VP9. My limited experience with them, I didn’t really like it, and found it harder to obtain the site picture I wanted, etc, unlike when one adds an RDS to a rifles, the benefits are pretty much obvious immediately.
On an AR, it’s like “how did i ever survive without this on my rifle!” On a pistol, not so much, at least in my minimal experience borrowing such a set up from a buddy.
It’s obvious the RDS on the pistol should also be superior and no doubt takes times to adjust to. For those who made the transition, how long did it take before the RDS showed itself to be what you’d hoped for? What did you do to make the adjustment? What advice do you have?
What I didn’t want to do was spend all that $, modify my pistol, etc, only to decide I really don’t like an RDS on my CCW pistol. That happen to anyone here?
I tried shooting with a RDS on a pistol for a period of time and did not like it. After several hundred rounds I determined I am faster and more accurate using iron sights, even though my eyesight is not what it was 45 years ago. I learned to shoot handguns with iron sights in the 1960’s, then mastered them in the 1970’s, so the transition was a bit more involved than someone who has less trigger time. My primary AR carbines have RDS sights on them and switching back and forth between RDS and iron sights is doable for me. Handguns are a different story.
I know people who compete in 3 gun matches who run a RDS on their pistol. One of them is a close friend who told me it took him two weekends and 2,500 rounds to make the transition from iron sights to a RDS before he realized a benefit at pistol and 3 gun matches. In his world tenths of a second can make the difference between placing first or placing outside the top ten, so he will only shoot firearms with a RDS or scope since he made the switch. He carries a Glock with a RDS for concealed carry and put his iron sight handguns in mothballs.
Supposedly the Aimpoint ACRO makes presentation easier since you naturally want to center the tube in your vision, whereas an RMR really is flat without that sort of reference point.
I shot my 3rd match with mine (Compact P320 RDS) and shot better than I have ever shot. It is not immediate, but it comes to you pretty quick. My first match was a disaster.
I’ve used an RMR on a revolver and found acquiring a sight picture quickly to be challenging, but the improvement in practical field accuracy was well worth it. This is a hunting revolver so speed of sight acquisition is not as important as a defensive pistol. That said a lot of repetition to clean up presentation made picking the dot up way faster.
Just got back from vacation, went to see my folks and my brother and his family went down with us. He has a Gen 5 G19 MOS with an RMR on it, we hit the pistol range twice last week and I shot his pistol quite a bit. While my stock VP9 has a better trigger, and is mechanically more accurate with the ammunition we were using from 7-50 yards his RMR’d G19 was easier to hit small low contrast targets with at distance. Even pitted against the new long slide kit VP9 slide assembly and match barrel I ran on range day 2 the RMR G19 was easier to get low probability hits with, and that long slide kit seems to be noticeably more accurate than the stock VP9 slide.
The RMR also made it easier to shoot small groups at 25 yards, yes my VP9 still outshot the G19. I used to be a competitive bullseye shooter, I can still shoot decent groups with iron sights but a dot makes it easier. Even fighting the rubbish stock Glock trigger it wasn’t difficult to post up some nice results on target. It’s hard to quantify this so I’ll just explain it like as such: at 25 yards shooting standing two handed I turned in some 5 shot groups with the stock VP9 that were about 4” Center to center with the equipped LE package sights that suck for target shooting. The level of concentration required to do this was considerable. I then slapped on the long slide kit and proceeded to sight it in at 25 yards, the adjustable rear and fiber optic front are way better for target shooting, and the extra sight radius cleans up the sight picture a bit too. Standing two handed at 25 yards and I turned in groups of 3”-3.5” with the best 3 shots often being in about 1.5”-2”, with cheap range ammo. Again a lot of concentration. Same drill with the G19 and RMR, about 4.5” groups very consistently, sight picture and sight focus were EASY just have to manage the trigger. With a better trigger probably would have shot better groups.
Holster draws to first shot on target were a bit slower with the G19 for me than the VP9, but I cannot attribute that solely to the RMR: I’m not a Glock owner or shooter, so my presentation of any Glock handgun is a soup sandwich of heeling the muzzle too high. It’s a training issue. Once I consciously angled my wrist down more things went much better as far as picking the dot up. One thing is for sure at least for me, it paid big dividends to get the gun as high as possible on the press out to target with the RMR. I’m used to being able to get it just high enough that the front sight is in the bottom of my vision as I press out and the sights are usually just “there” if my grip isn’t all dorked up. That doesn’t seem to work with the RMR, so a bad habit will have to get cleaned up.
I’m going the RDS route on the VP9 as well, probably going to have that long slide milled for an Aimpoint ACRO P-1 if possible. I don’t think that 5-6 range sessions and 1-2K rounds of ammo is too tall a training hurdle to overcome to transition to the RDS on a carry gun. I will specifically work on holster draws to first shot to clean up presentation and picking up the dot, and rapid fire to teach myself to be confident that the dot will come back when tracking the sight in recoil.
Good luck with your decision I hope to enjoy the process and find it worthwhile.
I went in with both feet on the RDS milling for my Glocks. I definitely underestimated how much trouble I was personally going to have getting comfortable shooting with a dot on a pistol. It took me several trips to get them properly (Or what I thought) was properly zeroed, and I really was not as patient with it as I needed to be at the start. I saw guys on here, and on youtube crazy fast and accurate with dots and could not figure out why I wasn’t, and it added to my frustration.
Now I only have one Glock 19 set up with a milled slide and an RMR, and my goal in the near future is to get as comfortable with it as I am with irons. I have about 500 rounds through it with the dot at this point. I am taking it out this weekend even, to get some more reps in. I feel like I am still about 5-700 rounds away from being competent enough with it to carry or use for self defense. I assumed because I am proficient with irons, and dots on carbines, that I would be good to go. I got very humbled lol
I’ve just began messing with RDS on pistols as my organization has recently adopted an optics-ready handgun. My fora thus far is a Bushnell TRS on a SW22 on steel at ten yards. Presentation was difficult at first but after 500-600 rounds became much more instinctive. I’m very hopeful moving forward with these optics and plan on acquiring the new ACRO for duty use once I’m completely comfortable.
One question I have is, how difficult is it to go back and forth between irons and red dot? I don’t really want to equip every handgun I own with an optic- especially CCW and backup/hiking revolvers.
My opinion is that trying to train presentations with ammo is a waste of money and time. My live fire is for validation and recoil management, etc.
My first drill with a rds was on par with irons, and it only got better.
The only “struggle” I had was transitioning target to target and losing the dot. Learn to know acceptable sight picture for a given situation.
For example, if im moving and transition to a ipsc target at 5yds and see the dot swipe the target but lose it- im pulling the trigger. Ill typically pick the dot back up during trigger press or in recoil.
A lot of dryfire presentations and draws for me. Mine is a RM06 on a G19. What I found initially was how atrocious my presentation was, which is why I couldn’t find the dot. It was there with irons too, I just didn’t know it. I’ve been running mine since September, and several thousand draws/presentations (dry and live fire) later, I’ve mostly unf’d my self regarding this. The accuracy of my pistol shooting has greatly improved and the speed has followed. I’m no Grand Master by any means, but its helped me be a better shooter by forcing me to see a proper sight picture before pressing the trigger. I want an RDS on every pistol I own!
Yeah big difference, auto pistol is way easier to pick up the dot for me, the revolver is already a high bore axis and the RDS mount is pretty tall as well. Very awkward sight height above your wrist. An open division IPSC shooter might be comfortable with it, but it would take me a long time.
Can’t speak to tracking the dot in recoil since the revolver is a .454 Casull and one does not track the sights in recoil on that. One simply tries not to get hit in the face by the revolver while hanging on to it.
You can get a dovetail mount and not modify the slide first. Yes, some expense but not as much irreversible change.
“How long” depends on the person but it does get there. If it is the same pistol you used before and your index is well developed, less. If not, more. People shoot guns for decades and don’t realize that they are dependent on seeing the gun and sights to get them on target and aligned, as opposed to looking at the target, bringing the gun up and see the gun point where you’re looking at. The key is regular and extensive dry fire, making sure that you’re setting your targets at different heights and angles.
I’ve Aimpoint T-1 mounted, which it is a tube, and it is not making anything easier. I think that stuff about ACRO is a pre-release hype-up. I’ve four different optics mounted and when I shoot, I’ve no idea how housing looks.
The juice is worth the squeeze for those of who have matured to the level of fuzzy front sights… I took a 2 day training class within a month or two of mounting my DPP on my G19. The combination of high round count and having pro watch my form, coaching and correcting me creating a very worthwhile outcome.
2, 10 minute draw / dry fire sessions and 2 range sessions and I felt very comfortable with red dots. I’m just as fast now as I was with irons and much faster at distance (beyond 75 yards ).
This getting older and having the front sight “blend” into the rear sight sucks! :laugh:
Presentation is key. Many people “fish” for the dot and it should just be there when you present the gun if doing things correctly
I would recommend checking out Sage Dynamics YouTube page. He has a ton of info on how to shoot with a rds on YouTube and his whitepaper has a lot of good info
There are some good instructors that offer RDS handgun classes if you are open to that. Modern Samurai Project and Sage Dynamics probably being 2 of the best. I know Steve Fischer and Chuck Pressburg offers them as well
For everyone who believes they got the RDS down in a couple range sessions/few hundreds rounds/one week of dry fire, I very strongly recommend a reality check by means of a good competition match with lots of uncomfortable positions, targets set up high and low, and dynamic scenarios requiring strong and support hand shooting. You might feel differently about your skills. I got the same carry optics classification after shooting four standing classifiers as my production classification is, achieved in a couple of years. I got humbled by all of the above things at last week’s Berry’s Steel Open, months and thousands of rounds into the dot thing.