^^ Truth.
So far, can’t say this thread has encouraged me to really wan to make the change over.
Great perspective post YVK.
LOL. I’ll play along. It took me about five minutes to get used to the idea that I don’t need a red dot on a pistol. Snark snark snark.
Ive been carrying a G34 w/RMR on duty since January, and I carried a G19 w/RMR ccw for awhile before that. I am still not “used” to it. That, however, doesn’t mean it hasn’t dramatically improved my shooting game, especially at distance.
I recently made the change to Glock 19 Gen 5 MOS RMR 3.25 with Trijicon night suppressor height sights. I love the sight picture, 1/3 co-witness with the RDS above the irons. Lots of dry fire and low ready practice just to raise the gun to eye level to acquire the red dot, over and over and over again. Went to the range the next day and easily shot better and times were better on the shot clock from the holster than ever before. I couldn’t be happier. Only drawback is that I carry appendix and the RMR prints MUCH more than without. To the point that I really can’t get away with carrying my G19 appendix. So while I’m figuring the best way to carry the G19 with RMR, went out and bought the G48 and that completely disappears:D
^^^
Great post. Completely agree.
For Will Brink…Have you shot a handgun with an RDS? If not, find someone or rent one and see what you think. After trying it out, I was sold. Its taken a lot of time and practice to get where I’m currently at, but its been worth it, for me. I had a lot of trouble diagnosing certain issues with my pistol shooting previous to using an RDS…Its made me understand where many deficiencies were and what to do to remedy. I believe for me it will always be a work in progress and there will always be room for improving my accuracy and speed, but I really think the dot is worth it, especially for older eyes.
Yes, the dot is easy to loose in odd situations.
IMO its very important to be able to switch to irons when the dot is no there.
I had a course of fire crouched, leaning weak side around a barricade and lost it. Line up irons and go(the dot will show up). There is a learning curve to getting all around proficient but if you dont rely on the optic- its a net gain IMO.
Shooting on the move is a huge plus for the optic IMO. Transitions while moving is much easier now.
I am conflicted on the irons. My game guns don’t have irons; technically it is hard to get functional irons with a DPP. Open guns, it is impossible. Nobody at the top of the game has backup irons on game guns too. Going from target focus to front sight focus might take more time than trying to reacquire target focus. I dunno an absolute truth here, but I myself am avoiding using irons and concentrate on index, sight alignment by feel, and whatever else that helps me look at the target and see the dot just appear there.
I have been running a red dot on a pistol since spring or summer 2001.
First it was a Dr. Optic which is still going strong on my sons pistol.
I think you have to learn how to run a red dot properly to get the most out of it in the real world.
I have evolved from having no back up sights to at some point adding back up irons where the rear sight is behind the red dot. Now I run just a front iron sight.
As your eyes age your ability to run a pistol at longer range goes down. I can still run a pistol with iron sights out to 10 yards better than 95% of cops in the USA.(not saying much)
I run my pistol as follows 0 to 7 yards I dont worry about the red dot if it is a fast string. If it need to be a shot through the eye ball of a terrorist holding a hostage then red dot would come into play.
From 7 to 10 it starts to blend towards red dot. Red dot takes me out to 100 yards.
I have a couple of pistols that dont carry a RMR and I am good using my HK P7 for non high threat places for a carry pistol.
I will never go back to a general use pistol without an RMR.
I run with some great people and one former member of the best anti terror unit in the USA always carries an RMR pistol and his eyes aren’t bad yet. He called a RMR pistol cheating.
“Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.”
-Col. John Dean “Jeff” Cooper†, USMC-ret, Guns & Ammo magazine, 2002
Maybe off topic but I’m curious of the red dot CCW aspect. I’ve been carrying a gun for the USG for 31 years now. I’m greatly interested in pistol red dots as I’m getting old and can’t focus on the sights anymore. Any switch to a RDS on a pistol would be a dramatic change for me. The red dot on a rifle is faster up close and just as accurate if not a little more so than irons at a distance. From what I’m reading the pistol with a red dot seems to be fairly even or maybe slower up close but really shines at a distance. For a CCW does the benefit of the red dot with the 25+yard shot really bring an advantage? At 75 to 100 feet from the threat does the non-LEO cover and evacuate or close on the threat with the red dot?
Also my issue P320 will always have irons but I can carry a red dot off duty if I want. Having no experience with a RDS on a pistol do you think one can switch back and forth between irons and a RDS guns. I preach at work under stress we always revert back to our basis of knowledge. I haven’t made the jump yet because I’m not sure I can undo 40+ years of shooting. David
Once found the dot is perfect for me. It’s the time it takes to find it (and the dot) that spoils it. Have you considered a laser ?
First, a disclaimer: I am not anything tactical, I am not SME, I am just a guy who reads and trains some. With that out,
- Yes, you’re slightly faster with irons on close and large targets.
- The difference diminishes with practice, and at some point of RDS proficiency the net effect is that RDS is fast enough on close and large targets, and better on everything else.
- A lot of CCW and tac trainers define appropriate human target zone not as a nebulous “COM” but as a 4-5 inch circle on the chest and head. With that target size, it is at least a wash between the two, if not faster with RDS.
- Tom Givens, in his 60+ students’ defensive shootings, has described shots at distances and situations where RDS would clearly be superior.
- Yes, switching back and forth is not a problem. I still carry iron sighted pistol pretty regularly. After some time with RDS I have eventually weaned myself off the sharp and crisp front sight pic on every goddamn shot I took with irons. I am learning to shoot with a target focus with irons and I think it is a best kept secret in fast and accurate shooting with iron sights.
Rds is faster and more accurate (or equal) at all distances for me.
The closer the target, the less the benefit, because sights are less important.
I do some sort of practice daily.
For situations i am in that I havent practiced (offhand around a barricade), i just use my sights in my peripherals, still target focused.
I really think it depends on the person and dedication to it.
Honestly, if you’re hesitant and doubtful, you probably shouldn’t do it because you’re setting yourself up for failure.
A laser by itself is less versatile than an RDS, due to lack of range outdoors during the day. Even with a green laser, with a class 3R, you’re pretty limited on a bright day to probably 7 yards at best.
The key to a speedy transition from irons to mini red dot is two-fold.
First, commit to a sight footprint and have your slide cut by a professional. If you opt for a MOS, CORE, “I’m afraid of commitment” slide or some top of the slide rear sight dovetail garbage, you’ll be one of those guys saying that it took you 22 months and 10000 rounds of practice to figure it out or you gave it up because “I’m better with irons.”
Second, get suppressor height irons sights to cowitness with your dot.
The reason most people have a hard time is because the dot sits way too high compared to where the normal sight picture is that you’ve practiced a million times fry firing. The combination of low-as-possible mini red dot from having the slide cut for that specific type of sight, and irons to help with your natural process of gun presentation will make the learning curve very short.
Transition to dot will take a couple days of dry firing and isn’t hard to go back and forth to irons/RDS because the angle of presentation is the same. I have no problem going back and forth. When I first tried a rear sight replacement mount it was impossible and I thought it was a stupid gimmick.
I guess I’m a fluke. I had no “transition” time to get used to my red dot. When I raise the pistol the dot is right there above my front site.
I find that I’m faster on target & more accurate at any range. I hesitated for a long time about mounting a RD but I was foolish to wait so long.
Irons were getting blurry after 56 years. I could still hit out to 25yds but it’s mostly years of training that made it viable. I’m now a major fan of them. I have two more waiting to get milled.
My EDC M&P 2.0 compact w/ Trijicon 3.25" type 06 gen 2.
My first experience with a red dot (G19 with an RMR) began a year ago after shooting iron sighted handguns for 50+ years. Picking it up and shooting the RMR equipped pistol was no problem at all, however, drawing from a holster and quickly acquiring the red dot took some effort. For me, presentation is the key to quickly pick up the red dot. If I draw and raise the weapon to what is essentially a high-ready position and then extending my arms the dot was rather quick to pick up. But even at that, I probably went through several hundred rounds before I felt like I was doing a decent job in rapidly seeing the dot.
A friend is a poobah with Aimpoint USA. He had a G34 equipped with an ACRO that he has been demonstrating for law enforcement and other organizations.
He let me shoot a magazine or two through it back in October. I’m sold. I’m going to have a G45 milled for an ACRO next month when they come out.
I’m with YVK and NongShim - I’m going to do a LOT of presentations with it, as well as range sessions. I’m also signed up for Scott Jedlinki’s RDS class in August. I’ll be shooting Tom Given’s Master Instructor class in November with it, doing multiple days of low light.
Paul Gardner is a friend, and will be spinning up a new training company this fall. He runs an RDS like a boss, and has zero problems going back and forth between it and irons on a G19. I watched him shoot a perfect score with an RDS G19 at Tom Given’s Advanced Pistol Instructor class, then immediately shoot it again with an iron-sighted G19. Perfect score again. We’ve talked about an RDS-specific class.
Yeah, it can be done. Like anything else, ya gotta put in the work. Will, you know all about putting in the work. My eyeballs are older than yours, so I’ll let you know how it goes.