Florida And It's Recent Gun Range Suicides

General General Discussion
1

I know this comes from the morons at ABC, but it may still be worth a read. What is it about Florida, or maybe this is a bunch of hype? Seems odd, as I can’t remember any similar stories around this way any time in the recent past.

Rob S, what is your take? Just a strange coincidence? Does the issue lie primarily with gun rentals?

Three Suicides, Three Months: Should Ranges Be Renting Guns?

Some Say Gun Rentals Lack Proper Vetting; No Background Checks Required
By EMILY FRIEDMAN
June 17, 2009

Three attempted suicides in recent weeks at Florida shooting ranges where customers can rent guns has left the owners of the ranges shaken and worrying that there is little they can do to protect customers from taking their own lives.

Marie Moore leaves behind audio message before going to the Florida gun range.“It bothers me to hear about instances of suicide,” said John Harvey, the owner of the Oak Ridge Gun Range in Orlando, Fla. “It really makes you sick.”

“It makes you wonder if there’s anything else you can do, but there isn’t,” said Harvey. “We discuss it all the time. It depresses everyone.”

While background checks are required by federal law for individuals purchasing guns, no such law exists for gun rentals.

“It’s difficult to screen. People will sign a complete waiver that they’re okay, they’re not going to hurt themselves and then boom,” said Harvey.

Harvey said that in his 22 years in the business, his own range has seen three attempted suicides and two that were successful. The last suicide was more than 10 years ago, he said.

But instances of suicide are not uncommon in the area, said Harvey, who said other gun range owners are struggling with the reality that their businesses could be providing individuals an easy way to take their own lives.

There are no official statistics that track the number of suicides at shooting ranges each year, but so far this year there have been several highly publicized gun range deaths.

On June 13, a woman rented a gun from East Orange Shooting Sports in central Florida and shot herself in the head. She survived the attempt and her condition is unclear. A lawyer for the range said that it would no longer be renting guns until it was able to run background checks on customers.

At the same range on April 27, a 26-year-old man committed suicide, and on April 5 a mother killed her 20-year-old son and then herself at Shoot Straight range in Gooseberry, Fla.

Jon Gutmacher, an Orlando attorney and the author of “Florida Firearms – Law, Use and Ownership,” said that as long as gun range owners are not able to do background checks on customers, suicides at the ranges aren’t likely to stop happening.

“The gun ranges are plum out of luck,” said Gutmacher. “There’s not a thing in the world that ranges are going to be able to do to help the situation.”

According to Gutmacher, range owners are prohibited by law from getting background checks on customers renting guns because of privacy issues and the history of abuse of the system.

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Violence, said that even background checks aren’t fool proof, and that the percentage of states that file the proper paperwork to report mental health issues that would deem someone unable to be a gun owner is low.

“But at least there is a process to stop dangerous people from getting the guns,” said Helmke.

If you can go to the gun range and not have that added barrier, we’re making this very, very easy for dangerous people to get access," he said. “We have to wonder if we’re enabling more suicidal people by letting guns be available to anyone in a gun range.”

For gun range owners, this means the only line of defense against suicidal customers is taking the person’s word when they say they are not mentally ill or intent on killing themselves.

“Other than ask and hope people are telling the truth, gun ranges can’t do much else [to prevent suicides],” said Gutmacher.

Gutmacher said that he tells his clients to ask as many questions as possible about a customer’s mental health, including whether they are currently taking anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medications as well as whether they have had any suicidal thoughts in the past two years.

But even Gutmacher said that his own advice is unlikely to stop suicidal customers from renting guns.

“As long as you’re not a convicted felon you can go into a gun range and rent a gun,” said Gutmacher.

“If someone wants to commit suicide he’s going to lie. Those questions aren’t going to stop them,” he said.

Harvey said that at his own range, he and his employees always ask about a customer’s mental state, even though “they don’t have to.”

Asked whether he has ever turned prospective gun renters away, Harvey said that he has, but it’s the rare exception.

“Ninety-nine percent of the time we don’t have to,” he said. “Occasionally there is someone who just seems a little strange.”

“I guess my employees need to be psychiatrists soon too,” said Harvey.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7855057&page=1

2

Personally, I think that it’s a waste of ammo.:mad:

3

I wasn’t aware that it was anyone other than the individuals responsibility to not kill themselves. What next, you go buy a length of flex hose and you have to have a background check and a psychological examination so you don’t run home and hook it up to your muffler?

The article sounds like more “do-gooders” trying to childproof the world much like people childproof their homes when they have kids. I hate to say it, but I’d much rather someone that’s going to kill themselves go do it that way rather than swerve their car into an oncoming bus load full of kids or something.

4

This isn’t unique to FL. It’s just a fluke that there’s been a few so close together.

5

I disagree. Stating that it is essentially a non-issue is incorrect, and your reasoning is one dimensional.

It is an unusual chain of events to say the least, is it not? Why are the incidents seemingly concentrated in one area? All states have shooting ranges. Simple copy-catting maybe?

Look, it is no grand conspiracy, I know. But, it should be relevant to those of us in a firearms forum who frequent gun ranges that things like this are going on for whatever reason. We don’t rent firearms at my ranges, so I am not familiar with the option nor it’s requirements.

Just looking to learn, not create controversy.

6

I see what you’re saying, and yes, I was over simplifying the issue. Mainly because a lot of times, these sort of things are over complicated by people who think it’s their job to legislate safety rather than actually expect people to take care of themselves.

I’d bet your notion about copy-catting is pretty spot on. There are people everywhere that are “on the edge” so to speak and all they need is a means to an end. Some choose pills, some choose ropes in a Bancock hotel room (sorry, couldn’t resist), some decide to ram their car into something, and some choose guns. The core of it is that if they are truely going to kill themselves, they’ll find a way. I just hope they don’t take anyone else with them when they do it.

I have a bit of a personal experience in this area. When I was in college, I had to keep my pistol locked in a box in the trunk of my car due to campus rules. My roommate and good friend, an outwardly happy person with narry a notion that he was suicidal, decided that he would take my keys out of my coat early in the morning as I slept. He went and got the gun, brought my keys back, and then went and shot himself with my gun. There were no indications that he was upset, nothing pointing to doom and gloom, and that’s not just my opinion. His family was shocked, his other friends were shocked, and all thought I should have seen something coming. He wanted to kill himself, he found a way to do so. Not totally related, but it leads me to a small point. That point is, that a truely motivated person will find a way to take their own life, regardless of background checks, psychological profiles or any other sort of “safety measure” mandated by the Gov’t or anyone else.

It sucks for gun owners because it puts the sport into the media in a bad light. The thing is, there are countless sucides every day in this country, probably many that use the same method in a confined area when the population density gets higher. Why aren’t a rash of hangings or pill poppers reported in the media? I’ll tell you why, but you probably already know… it’s not reported because it’s NOT a gun. The introduction of a gun in the mix makes it news, without a gun, it’s more than likely just an obituary.

7

Range suicide is fairly common occurrence here at the indoor ranges in Austin, Tx

8

One thing that would help is if the media stopped hyping it up.

In many instances, they incite far more violence than they have ever prevented. Yet, they ignore the red stuff on their hands.

9

Interesting.

As someone who lives in a densely populated area, I am baffled as to why this does not appear to happen at any of the many gun ranges in the Philadelphia region. Lot’s of folks around here are in a bad state of mind, trust me when I tell you. Again I ask, is it a rental issue perhaps?

If it did happen around here, the anti-gun Philadelphia media would be all over the story. Yet, I can’t think of a single instance of it in the area in many years. Guess if you don’t see it happen locally it is easy for one to become confused by the chain of events.

10

It’s not a rental issue, it’s a media coverage issue, like I said earlier.

11

Some intrepid reporter should review the cases to see how many of the injured or deceased had disability criteria that would have been identified in a “background check” (undefined).

I suspect that we’d find that most decedents went to the rental range because they didn’t own a gun, not because they couldn’t.

12

And like I said earlier, there is no such media coverage around here because there appear to be no such incidents around here. If there were, we would surely hear about it in this anti-gun area I can assure you.

Therefore, I am trying to differentiate what makes that area seemingly more prone to this than other areas (including my own), and have specifically indicated that perhaps the issue lies in firearm rentals.

Got it now?

13

So, what you’re saying is… you live in New Jersey, but posted an article about Florida and are wondering why a news article about Florida doesn’t apply to New Jersey?

I’m sure there were plenty of local rags that covered the story in Florida. Therefore, there was MEDIA that reported it in the local area. One whackjob went in and off’d himself that way because he read about it on the internet about someone doing it in Texas or somewhere else and then the MEDIA propegates the problem by plastering it all over the place in Florida. Then, the next downtrodden person gets the idea from there, and bing-bang-boom (sorry for the pun) another, then another offs themselves at the gun range.

If one person were to go into a gun range in New Jersey and do this, you’re right, it would undoubtedly make the front page. Guess what would likely happen. Another person might do it, whereas if the media didn’t make it out to be this evil revolving door of death and destruction, it wouldn’t spawn copy-catters.

If people off themselves, it shouldn’t be a huge media event weather it be by rope or pills or gun. They should be nothing more than an obituary.

As for if it is more prone in certain areas… A quick search shows that Florida has a whole lot more access than New Jersey to gun ranges. Florida shows 140 to 67 in New Jersey. Increasing the availability on any method will undoubtedly increase its frequency. Why do women prefer to off themselves with pill? Perhaps because they are easily available and it won’t mess up their hair. Why do others prefer to jump off buildings? Because it’s tall and they have access. Why do others choose a gun? Because it’s widespread and available, moreso in Florida than New Jersey, hense the disparity of news coverage. To take it out a small step further… Why do they go to gun ranges and use a rental gun? Because they don’t have one of their own for whatever reason and need access to one with as little friction as possible. They sure as hell wouldn’t ask a friend “Hey, can I borrow your pistol so I can kill myself?” so they go rent one.

Got it now?

14

:o

This is nothing new.

The range I go to for indoor pistol had the same thing happen years back. .357mag to the chest by a rental gun.

15

This is not what I stated nor implied in the least. You just looking to give someone a hard time today?

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

Yes, I do better understand your point of view now. That because you decided to use relevant data as well as examples to formulate an actual possible explanation rather than attempt to over simplify and belittle. Nice work.

Still seems disproportionate to me despite the ratio of gun ranges. Several there and none here doesn’t offset the numbers.

16

Wasn’t my intent… but the “Got it now?” did seem a bit snippy, so I retorted. Sorry if you felt belittled.

17

My apologies for the misunderstandings as well. No harm done.

I think you likely found the likely primary cause, which is more ranges equal more opportunity. But, it is just weird that Florida in particular has been so active in this regard, while a very densely populated area like mine remains seemingly immune.

Such a shooting here would be heavily exploited by the media, so I must assume and be thankful they just don’t happen in this area for whatever reason. Certainly not something I want to be next to when it happens.

18

That’s actually a sad and common occurrence up here in Oregon. Most ranges that rent guns require that either the person renting, or the person which they came in with has to own a firearm already.

Seems to be a preventative measure, at least in principal. Not sure how well it works.

19

Heck, there’s been a couple at Impact Guns in Roy, Utah. I go there from time to time. I must admit I’ve seen a few people signing up to shoot that made me go eat dinner first, rather than shoot in the same room. Mostly because they appeared unsafe, not because they appeared suicidal.

20

Maybe part of the problem is the housing meltdown in Florida. They have some of the highest property value losses. The entire state economy was dependent on continuous expansion and construction, as was the state government because there is no personal income tax.

As more and more people moved to Florida, more houses and were built, fueling the need for more contractors, workers, loan officers, title agents, real estate agents, etc. As these people moved in to fill the demand for their skills, even more houses were built so they would have a place to live.

All of this has come to a grinding halt, lots of people are bankrupt and losing their homes. Businesses are going under, and the only other significant industry is tourism, which has also taken a big hit because people can’t afford to spend the money to go there.

New Jersey on the other hand was hit by the financial crisis, as well as New York, but I don’t think it has seen the wholesale meltdown of real estate prices. Most of the northeast coast has been more stable than states like FL, CA, and NV.

As usual, the subject of increased background checks came up in the article. The author has no clue that suicidal indicators would most likely NOT show up on a background check. The only thing that would show up is if you have been found mentally impaired in a court of law and/or involuntarily committed. And with some states (i.e. VA before the VA Tech shooting), that doesn’t even show up.

I also like how they want to discriminate against people taking anti-depressants. These are now some of the most commonly prescribed medications in the country, and 99.99% of the people taking them never commit suicide. If the medication works correctly, it decreases the likelihood of suicide. Many cops and soldiers take anti-depressants because they have stressful jobs and see a lot of bad things. It doesn’t make them unqualified to do their jobs or carry a firearm.