Thinking of throwing it on a G19 to see if it’d help with follow up shots, or spring life.
I’ve heard Grant say he uses ISMI recoil assemblies, because of failures of the polymer unit (which I’ve never seen, btw).
I know this is a bucket of worms, but hopefully I can wade through the bullshit, and get some great info.
Will a steel rod beat up the plastic frame?..
If I did it I’d go with a stainless recoil rod, and a Sprinco spring.
Recommended spring weights?..
Glock did change the recoil spring guide rod material to a tougher composition a few years back. The part number is the same with the addition of a -1, IIRC. The older rods were more brittle and did fail on occasion.
Spring weights get more critical on lighter slides and your window of uber-reliable function may narrow.
I have seen tests where Glocks were fired until the guide rod melted and squirted out of frame. I have never heard of a guide rod failing and locking up a gun.
I don’t see how a failed guide rod would prevent the gun from operating unless it shattered and little pieces got between the coils of the spring to the point that it prevented the spring from compressing during recoil.
I don’t know that is a failure that I would worry about versus the increase weight and annoyance of dealing with a non captured guide rod.
Somone else my chime in and have some examples of why I am wrong.
As to beating up the gun, I don’t see how it would. Assembled correctly it nestles in the notch on the barrel and slide, I don’t think it would touch the frame.
Glock has their magazine they put out.
A few years ago they had a write up on of their factory competition shooters pistols and he was running a Tungsten guide rod to help keep muzzle flip down.
I do not know if it works or not but that is what they said.
I myself like the captured spring units as they would make things quicker and easier to re-assemble if you had to do it in a stressful situation. They do make heavier guide rods that are captured.
I tried a stainless guide rod on a Glock 23 I had with no issues in about 600 rounds. I also didn’t notice much of an effect on muzzle flip but I wasn’t a very experienced shooter. I sold that gun years ago along with the guide rod. I know that’s not a ton of testing, but I don’t see how something like the ISMI guide rod and spring could cause any permanent problems assuming the spring rate is correct and the materials are good quality. I’ve used ISMI springs in a number of different pistols and magazines and never had a problem with their quality. The Glock recoil spring is flat just like the factory one. The guide rod shouldn’t be able to damage the frame regardless of material. Correct me if I’m wrong but the rearward movement of the slide is stopped but the slide stop, which itself is steel. The forces should be basically the same regardless of what the guide rod is made of. I’ve never seen a guide rod fail but apparently it happens. It’s only $20, try one out and tell us how you like it.
I only have firsthand experience with the Glockmeister units. I have the SS captured units with 15# ISMI springs. According to Glockmeister, the stock springs are 17# for a G17. I haven’t had any issues with either one. One gun has around 5K rounds through it, including 2 multi-day classes without any issues. I’ve probably had 2-3 stovepipes with it running steel cased ammo during rapid fire so I think it could have been a shooter induced malfuction. The other gun has 1K rounds and no malfunctions.
Back in 2009, when I first began shooting, and researching Glock mods, I came across an article where a guy tried multiple spring weights to determine which was allowing for faster followup shots.
IIRC, the lower weights cause the recoil to be more snappy (faster slide speed), but less muzzle flip. The higher weights reduced the snappiness, but caused the muzzle to lift more.
I don’t notice a difference with the 15# ISMI versus the stock RSA.
Tried my stock 22 and my friends with guide rod and steel spring. No noticeable difference. But try it. There are lots of things I try, notice difference, but everyone else says waste of time and money. Also works the other way around.
Why is that?.. I thought it would be the other way around.
My Gen4 G19 recoils less than my Gen3 gun, and it has a higher spring weight, I’m 99% sure.
I’ve wondered about this too. I can’t see how this would be the case as an M&Ps come with the steel guide rod, but you know what they say about assumptions…waiting to see if anyone has extensive rounds down range experience with one in a Glock.
I can conclude that it does not, because the recoil assembly doesn’t touch the frame.
I’m stupid, and should have remembered that. However, it could be debatable as to weather or not the rod itself will have a longer service life than the polymer unit.
You will probably have to change out the OEM unit because the spring reaching the end of it’s service life before the rod makes it there.
From my limited experience.
I am going to preface this by saying that I’m no expert, so if I am not making sense, someone correct me.
I believe it’s because the recoil cycle using the lower spring weight is faster and the force exerted on the gun doesn’t last as long. You get a shorter duration, but much sharper rearward impulse. The frame probably gets battered a bit more.
With a stiffer spring, the recoil cycle slows, and the slide will push harder against the frame (more pounds of tension on the spring), and this will increase the force generating muzzle flip. However, the recoil won’t feel as sharp as the heavier weight spring is storing more of the energy. The slide will also move forward with more force as it goes back into battery.
EDIT: I did a search and I think this is one of the websites that explained the concept. There were several different modifications and I don’t necessarily advocate doing any of these things to your gun, especially if it’s a carry gun, but having the knowledge is useful. I’m one of those people that like to know because I want more complete understanding. The author of the article obviously had some questionable viewpoints as to what a perfect gun might be and many of the weird things he documented will undoubtedly affect reliability.
Bullet point #6 on changing the recoil spring explains it.
I meant if a steel rod would have more life than the poly unit.
Uwe, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense. I’ll stick with higher spring weights.
I will respectfully differ. I have used up-rated recoil springs (ISMI 20 and 22lb on my G21 using stock plastic GR) and 20lb Wolff recoil spring set and steel wolff guide rod set on my gen4 G26.
In both cases, I have experienced a drastic reduction in both felt recoil and muzzle rise using speer +P lawman ammo (124gr +P 9mm and 200gr +P in .45).
I find that if you are one of those people who grips your gun tight enough to really minimize the movement of the gun in your hands (aka ‘squirm’), the stronger recoil springs will be of most benefit to you. I have grip tape on my gen3 G21 and the std texture of the gen4 grip on my G26 both help me to grip the gun very positively.
Further, I find that, if the gun does not move in your hand, the stronger recoil springs will drive the slide back into battery a LOT harder than the std springs…I think this is what forces the muzzle back down more than the stock springs, on top of reducing rearward slide velocity. AND it’s easier on the frame of the gun (though with Glocks the frames seem to be pretty friggin rock-solid regardless). Both my guns shoot much softer to me and my squad-mates who train regularly…but we all grip our guns firmly and are pretty good at minimizing movement.
I MUCH prefer the stronger recoil springs for the above reasons…and for the reason that the only malfs I experience on my G21 are when I’m ~350 rounds deep into a training day and the gun is dry…I’ll always have some failure-to-return-to-battery issues later in the string. With the stronger springs, these issues disappear, yet the guns still lock back on empty. No downside for me so far.
Lighter springs track flatter, at the expense of slightly more recoil straight rearward, but transmitted in a quicker manner which feels less to me.
Contrary to the poster above me, my experience is that you are not fighting the spring as much with lighter springs. Heavier springs make the muzzle dip more following recoil as the slide slams back into battery when running fast splits, and you have to muscle the gun back into position or will throw shots.
That being said, if a heavier spring works for you, rock on.
What you or I feel and experience vs. others may be different.
Which is why competitive shooters use lighter springs.
And lighter loads…
I know.
I was referring to the fact that the OEM plastic one is captured. You will wear out the spring before you wear out the rod.
When you change the spring, you change the rod with it.
Hence, never reaching the service life of the rod.
Kinda like “How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop”.
MUCH lighter loads. Had a buddy who has a full race gun in .45… the loads he uses for that (he rolls his own) won’t even CYCLE my G21 using a stock RSA.
I want springs that run when my gun is dirty/rained-on/sweated-on/bloody/muddy/fouled/hot/freezing/wet/dry. Lighter springs are not guaranteed to do that. Using real loads (my agency uses Speer 200gr +P lawman/GDHP), a heavier spring significantly reduces recoil for me in my world. My splits were significantly reduced using a 22lb spring in my G21 over the stock 17lb spring. Same with my buddies (some of whom were tested blind and did not know the gun had been altered).
Obviously, other users here have had different experiences using different setups…and I don’t doubt the validity of their experiences. But for me, using this gun and this ammo, the improvement is concrete.
This has been figured out long ago by high-volume competition shooters: lighter springs cycle faster so they shoot flatter, recoil softer, are less prone to limp-wrist malfunctions, and will eject brass more efficiently, heavier springs will last longer and increase feeding reliability with really dirty guns/chambers, but will have more felt recoil, be more likely to malf do to a poor grip (limp-wrist malfs), and have more muzzle rise… decide what you’re after and do some testing, remembering that different guns/designs will allow more variance than others without losing reliability than others.
Most new guns are slightly over-sprung from the factory for recoil-assembly longevity and tolerance to users feeding them crap ammo and or neglecting to clean them properly, slightly detuned from their full potential in favor of being less likely to make trips back to the factory, for a company trying to move units, money-wise this makes sense.
Glock’s in 9mm can be sprung a couple pounds lighter without any drop-off in reliability, if anything they just run better… assuming one cleans 'em every 1000-1500rds or so a 15lb ISMI spring on a stock Glock polymer guide rod in either a G17 or G19 is good for 5000rds or more shooting both lower-pf target FMJ and +P stuff and will be just as reliable as stock, just run better, shoot flatter, and shoot softer.
Hear me now, believe me later… but read this first: http://www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html
As for what the rod is made of, it’s a wash, engineers I’ve talked to have said that if anything the polymer is maybe better as it’ll flex with the frame, the guide rod merely keeps the spring in the right spot, it doesn’t have to do a whole lot more than just sit there and help to keep the spring where it’s supposed to be.