Any advantages to a heavier non-captioned recoil spring in a Gen3 G19?

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
21

I read the link.

“The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and [sic] increase in muzzle flip.”

Doesn’t that go against the laws of physics for conservation of energy? Doesn’t it also go against the vast amount of research that has gone into virtually every recoil reduction product on the market (SIMS Vibration Labs, PWS, Battle Comp Ind., Past, Ops Inc., Enidine, Vltor’s A5 system, et al.)?

I also recommend that you speak to a company who actually manufactures springs (Wolff Gunsprings). I’ve spoken to them numerous times and their findings have been the exact opposite of what you’re espousing.

I disagree with almost half of the information provided in your link and basically everything you stated about spring weights.

Have you shot a G23 in .40 with underpowered recoil springs…or even worn stock springs (and watched the slide constantly outrun the mag spring causing malfs)?

Do you know what happens when you slap a TLR1/X300 on a gen3 G22/23? They malf so often due to the round stack in the magazine not keeping up with the slide velocity, that my agency has forbidden the use of weapon lights on them…but it’s okay for use on G21s and G17s. But, like magic, when you add an increased power recoil spring (and an increased power magazine spring), you can run the G22/23’s all day long with a light…even shooting weak-hand with sweaty palms.

The OP is asking about a G19. You are recommending that the OP use a reduced power recoil spring, which will INCREASE slide velocity…and could easily turn his defensive handgun into a worthless malf-ing POS. Are you aware of the consequences of the advice that you are providing? This is serious stuff and you are making recommendations that are known to cause more malfunctions (and increase perceived recoil) using full power loads.

The LAST thing you need to do to a defensive handgun is to increase slide velocity. Seeing as how we still all live by the laws of physics, the only way to moderate and control slide velocity is either by mass or resistance. The mass is a finite (and un-alterable) amount…so increasing or decreasing spring pressure is the only way to manipulate SV. Reducing spring pressure will necessarily increase slide velocity.

If running a weaker RSA is so awesome, I wonder why Glock’s agency armorer course strictly mandates the replacement of the RSA’s for all calibers at a maximum of 5,000 rounds? If weaker springs were better, why not just keep running the weakened RSA’s, advertising that they “get better with age”?

I’m not buying what you’re selling, and I guess we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I haven’t spoken to an engineer yet (either at Wolff or Springco) who agrees with your findings on this subject. I’ve said my piece on the subject.

22

Competitive shooters in 9mm aren’t necessarily using “much lighter loads”. In 9mm, to make power factor for the most common gun games like USPSA and IDPA you have to make minor, which is 125 pf.

That means a 124 grain bullet must be travelling at >1,008 fps to make minor power factor.

Most shooters, due to variability the velocity in any ammo, will give themselves some buffer above the power factor floor, and shoot 130 to 135 pf in 9mm. That equates to a velocity of between 1,048 fps and 1,088 fps. To make that velocity with most powders, you’re near the max charge weight and pressure levels.

Factory 124 gr standard pressure target 9mm ammo is typically running around 1,040 fps 10 ft from the muzzle, 69 ft. above sea level at ~90 degrees, IME.

What works well in .45 ACP (or .40 S&W) may not work equally as well as in 9mm (and vice versa). The OP was asking about a G19, which can typically be resprung.

23

The laws of Physics are laws, not opinions, whether one chooses to ignore them or not is up to themselves.

Lighter shoots softer, it’s physics.

24

I think that we are all confusing felt recoil versus actual recoil and muzzle flip.

A lower spring weight will increase slide velocity and the felt recoil will be sharper, but straight back.

The heavier spring will store more energy. However, that spring is ultimately pushing against the shooter which makes the shooter work harder to control the squirm. The grip acts like a fulcrum (not sure if this is the correct term), so there will be a longer harder push against the shooter which will increase muzzle flip, especially if the shooter doesn’t have an iron grip.

It also isn’t fair to argue long gun recoil characteristics with pistols. You mentioned a number of muzzle devices that don’t exactly act like springs. The Enidine has “hydraulic” properties and the Vltor A5 increases the mass of the buffer to absorb recoil while increasing the power of the spring to compensate for the heavier buffer.

Trying to make sure we’re discussing apples to apples here…(Sorry for bad grammar issues, typing from my phone)

25

I understand what you are trying to say, but so far you and everybody else only talk about HALF the physics involved. Yes, a stronger spring can cause the frame to rotate slightly more in the shooter’s hand on the recoil stroke, but that SAME ‘stored energy’ that you mention also gets released BACK into the slide as it gets forced into battery harder than with the weaker spring. This pushes the muzzle back down harder (and faster) than with a weaker spring.

My point is that all of the modern recoil reduction devices center around lengthening the amount of time that a force, X, gets applied to the shooter. Increasing this duration reduces perceived recoil. SIMS has some great graphs that illustrate this principle. The A5 works in the same way, slowing the impact of the BCG on the rear of the receiver extension…causing it to shoot much softer than most carbine setups.

And, conversely, if a stronger recoil spring can store more energy on the recoil stroke, then it can also dispense more energy on the return to battery. If a weaker spring stores less energy (and it does), then your hands must absorb more net energy with a weaker spring than a stronger spring.

Lastly, you don’t need an ‘iron grip’…but if you’re not using a combat grip, then I guess you’re just exclusively comp oriented. And that’s fine, but if you’re training with any expectation of defensive use, you need to be gripping your gun HARD. I’ll define this, as do Travis Haley, Chris Costa, & Bruce Gray define it (among others) as a grip that is firm and just shy of the point of inducing tremors. If the gun is moving in your hands, you’re doing it wrong and something needs to change. Maybe you need to modify the gun or your grip or both. I have TalonGrip tape on my G21 because without it, my hands shift slightly when sweaty or dirty. The gun should not move in your hands. If you have to adjust your firing grip between shots, regardless of what gun or recoil spring you’re using, then the root issue is the gun shifting in your hands, NOT the weight of the recoil spring. If somebody has to use a lighter weight recoil spring in order to have the gun not squirm in their hands, that’s a training issue. If anybody wonders about that, ask TG, TH, CC, BG, or anybody else on this board who has been-there-and-done-that about it (no sarcasm…shoot them an email, they’ll answer) and they can provide some good advice to get your grip and the gun where they need to be to stop the movement between shots. TH sums it up well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw

26

Some people experience muzzle dip with the stronger springs as the slide is forced into battery harder…

My point is that all of the modern recoil reduction devices center around lengthening the amount of time that a force, X, gets applied to the shooter. Increasing this duration reduces perceived recoil. SIMS has some great graphs that illustrate this principle. The A5 works in the same way, slowing the impact of the BCG on the rear of the receiver extension…causing it to shoot much softer than most carbine setups.

And, conversely, if a stronger recoil spring can store more energy on the recoil stroke, then it can also dispense more energy on the return to battery. If a weaker spring stores less energy (and it does), then your hands must absorb more net energy with a weaker spring than a stronger spring.

Lastly, you don’t need an ‘iron grip’…but if you’re not using a combat grip, then I guess you’re just exclusively comp oriented. And that’s fine, but if you’re training with any expectation of defensive use, you need to be gripping your gun HARD. I’ll define this, as do Travis Haley, Chris Costa, & Bruce Gray define it (among others) as a grip that is firm and just shy of the point of inducing tremors. If the gun is moving in your hands, you’re doing it wrong and something needs to change. Maybe you need to modify the gun or your grip or both. I have TalonGrip tape on my G21 because without it, my hands shift slightly when sweaty or dirty. The gun should not move in your hands. If you have to adjust your firing grip between shots, regardless of what gun or recoil spring you’re using, then the root issue is the gun shifting in your hands, NOT the weight of the recoil spring. If somebody has to use a lighter weight recoil spring in order to have the gun not squirm in their hands, that’s a training issue. If anybody wonders about that, ask TG, TH, CC, BG, or anybody else on this board who has been-there-and-done-that about it (no sarcasm…shoot them an email, they’ll answer) and they can provide some good advice to get your grip and the gun where they need to be to stop the movement between shots. TH sums it up well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw

I am not disputing what you’re saying at all and am only interested in learning the concepts. Both you and ck1 made very valid points.

I won’t be modifying my Glocks to run on super light springs. To be honest, I don’t see a big difference in the way my guns run on stock plastic recoil spring assemblies versus ISMI spring/SS guide rod setups.

My grip is fairly tight and is almost at the point of inducing tremors, but I’m not a big guy, white collar worker here, and it’s taken me some time to build up grip strength. Thanks for putting forth the other side of the picture though.

27

Np.

I’m a 235lb weight-lifting, broad-shouldered cop, and I still use a little stress ball (rubber around rice or sand…got it at sport’s authority) while I’m on patrol. I use it constantly while I’m in my car. Hand strength is something that all shooters need to constantly work on (me included). That and dry fire practice. TONS of dry fire practice.

28

I don’t think that’s completely accurate. The slide moves faster, more recoil is absorbed by the shooter (instead of the spring and by extension, the frame of the gun), and the sights may track flatter (less muzzle flip), but it doesn’t shoot “softer”. I suppose it can be ‘perceived’ to feel that way…

29

Comp shooters get less recoil because they shoot rediculously light loads, and need light springs to compensate for it.

I’m hearing that a heavier recoil spring will be better for me then.

Does anybody know how heavy the standard Gen3 recoil spring is?

Also, what is the Gen4 weight? I’m going back to Glockmeister single captioned springs in those guns.

30

Some of you guys are missing it, while it certainly seems counter-intuative for a lighter spring to shoot softer and have less felt recoil, the concept is actually fairly straightforward and there are many examples of where counter-intuative physics are working all around you if you really think about it…

For just one example: the same concept is at work in the use of crumple-zones in modern automobiles, at first thought one might think “you’re doing what? you’re using bumpers that squash easily on purpose…?” but the thing is the goal is to dissipate energy not transmit or store the energy, so for the safety of the passengers energy-absorbing bumpers and crumple-zones work far better (the passengers in the event of an accident/crash experience less felt-recoil) than the older rigid bumper-designs, which is totally counter-intuative to a “stronger is always better” mantra.

Again, the concept is all about dissipating and bleeding off the recoil energy in the fastest most efficient manner, NOT holding onto it and transferring the recoil-impulse to the shooter.

Think Sports Car suspension vs. Grandma’s Buick: softer suspension absorbs and dissipates the bumps and road irregularities delivering the “rolling couch” impression, with sports cars the same stiffer suspension that lets them handle like they’re on rails also means it transmits more bumps and road vibes.

This stuff isn’t just for competition guys who are shooting soft, low-pf “bunny fart” loads either… at least understanding the concept is a good idea as in some guns changing spring weights even a couple pounds up or down can totally cure small issues they’ve been having (especially in 1911’s), but also, more importantly, it may keep one from getting killed when one day a buddy comes along who doesn’t understand the concept fully and recommends that they go up to a stronger spring than they really need with the promise of less felt-recoil, less muzzle-rise, and pretty much all the things that actually going lighter deliver… only to leave them with a weapon that has become more picky to grip and stance inputs, more likely to jam, and that locks up into battery so overly tight that if wounded or injured one-handed operation of the gun such as one-handed loading and firing are twice as difficult as they need to be.

31

I wouldn’t go any heavier than the stock weight unless you are built like a 235# bodybuilding cop, frequently training with +P loads, like Buford.

There is ample evidence that the stock configuration works perfectly with +P loads.

The SS guide rod/ISMI 15# spring setups I currently use are from when I was a newbie. They have been completely reliable for me and I have switched back to the stock polymer RSAs for comparison and haven’t noticed a large difference. My problem G19, which is now cured, is running a unknown name SS guide rod with the stock (18#) spring weight.

The heavier spring is going to store more energy in the frame, making it more “alive” when fired. If you have a strong grip, then countering it will be less difficult.

Maybe try it and let us know your impressions…

32

There’s some excellent information on this thread.

The quintessential question that needs to be asked is, “How’s the gun going to be used?” If its for plinking, competition, et al, knock yourself out and experiment.

If it’s for carry/self defense, stick with the current OEM recoil spring assembly. A little research will quickly reveal that one of the easiest ways to compromise a Glock’s operational reliability is to switch out the OEM unit with an aftermarket wonder.

I’m not denying that careful, knowledgeable tuning can improve a Glock’s performance. The caveat words are “careful” and “knowledgeable.”

For competitive hardware discussions like this, you might want to check out the Brian Enos forums.

Best, Jon

33

I’m flattered, but I lift for strength, not looks. :slight_smile:

I could give a shit how I look (I’m not “cut” by any stretch)…but the last 300lb college dumb ass whose head I bounced off the pavement sure underestimated me. :wink:

I guess I should state that just because somebody has a lot of trunk strength, does NOT mean that their hands/forearms are just as strong. #handstrengthtrainingforeverybody

34

This is the end goal.

The gun will be used for concealed carry, with Federal/Hornady 147 gr. JHPs.

Are you guys saying that the Gen3 Single caption G19 spring is 15 lbs, and the Gen4 is 18 lbs?

For the Gen3 guns I kind of want to go 2 pounds higher, and see if it compromises reliability, if so then there isn’t a reason to switch units. I’m not gonna switch assemblies just to have the same weight spring, that’s retarded.

The Gen4 gun will get a Glockmeister spring assembly regardless.

35

Glad it became of use.

36

I believe the stock Gen3 G17 spring weight is 17# and Gen3 G19 is 18#. I read that on Glockmeister a few years ago and my memory could be faulty. I don’t know what the Gen4s are.

37

I use a G19 with a Wolff 15# recoil spring/rod. Felt recoil is noticably reduced and my split times shrunk.

I let several intermediate / advanced level shooters shoot a stock G19 and my G19 side x side.
Nearly all of them preferred mine.

Most of the beginner level shooters that did it couldn’t tell much of a difference.

All that said, I do use standard pressure ammo for training and carry (nothing to do with my recoil rod/spring choice).

38

non exisitent problem here is your solution

39

Thank God he started this thread so you could play wise old owl.

To the OP, buy a tungsten rod and some springs, shoot it, then post your results.

40

Thank goodness we got that tidbit of info tossed into the conversation :rolleyes: