I can’t help but laugh sometimes when I hear some of the people here talk about “when the shit hits the fan,” and how they would never use a certain piece of equipment because if “the shit hits the fan” it could fail them. Seems to me someone who uses this expression probably has never or will never be in a position where they need their rifle. How many of these same people who sit behind their keyboards talking about doomsday scenarios and armed conflict like they’re experts are 100 pounds overweight? The difference in durability between an EOTECH and an Aimpoint for example, means absolutely nothing when the user is out of breath after running 20 feet and takes 10 seconds to get up from the kneeling. Yet people who could improve their chances of survival in armed conflict by improving their physical fitness or actually training with their rifles will sit here and discuss EOTECH vs AIMPOINT and 4150 vs 4140 barrel steel etc ad nauseum. Now, I’m not saying that there isn’t merit to these types of considerations. If your life depends on your rifle it is absolutely logical to make sure you have the best equipment. And I’m also not saying that there aren’t real shooters on this site who can and do push their equipment hard enough to make equipment comparisons relevant. What I AM saying, is that I know for a fact that for most of the users here, 4140 vs 4150, HPT/MPI testing, etc etc etc, is absolutely secondary in importance to training and physical fitness, yet these topics dominate the vast majority of the conversation when it comes to self defense. I don’t take issue with claims that higher end components perform better. I’m in full agreement. What I disagree with is the emphasis that the average forum member puts on gear, when what’s really important in a gunfight is marksmanship, mental agility and toughness, and physical stamina. My intent here is not to start a flame war or insult anyone, I just think that some of the madness needs to stop.
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#1 Dude, make a paragraph…or three.
#2 “…I know for a fact…” How do you know this …for a fact?
#3 Just curious, am I one of the ones you’re talking about?
But maybe it’s just me…
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We discuss the details of the AR platform to learn more about it and to figure out what works best. I think we all know that there’s more to gunfighting then the gun. We are all adults here.
It’s an expression. If all you’re going to do is pick a minor point to dispute that merely boils down to a matter of semantics, why bother to respond? There was nothing of substance in your post. And, you have managed to turn a few sentences into four paragraphs. Why? Do you see how trivial your reply was, now that I’ve responded in the same manner?
I wasn’t going to touch this one but I just can’t keep my mouth (fingers) shut.
Maybe some of these people that you speak about think this way about all the products they buy and how they care for themselves and their families.
I have an expensive AR (or maybe 7). I have an expensive computer. I have an expensive smart phone. I buy brand name items for my children. I eat right. Maybe it’s a lifestyle. Buy good stuff and buy it once. I have lived that lifestyle all of my life, before I owned ARs.
Drive a Yugo into a tree at 50 MPH. Drive a BMW into a tree at 50 MPH. Both cars are capable of going 50 MPH. Which one would you rather be in when the shit hits the tree?
I can see that many people have already or are going to miss the point of my post. I'm not one of those guys who thinks that all AR-15's are the same or that there's nothing wrong with DPMS. I purchase quality parts myself, because I agree with your philosophy of "buy once." I think maybe I didn't clearly enough state my point.
What I'm getting at is the community tends to overlook a lot of important factors regarding self defense / armed conflict.
I'm a big fan of technical discussions and learning the ins and outs of the platform. I'm not against picking apart the differences between 4140 and 4150 etc. What I'm against is these kinds of things getting talked about as being the ONLY important factor in discussions of self defense. The emphasis is too much on the gear and not enough on the driver. Again, I'm not referring to purely technical discussions. I'm talking in the context of self defense.
I agree with several of your points but I think you may be missing the type of site this is by your post. This site is about the weapon system and it’s components and accessories.
If you want a tactical site there are many others that may offer more. These other sites are geared more to the tactical side from the military, LEO, or armed civilian part of the house. As I’m sure you know there are also sites dedicated to 3 gun, long range, or any other myriad of disciplines that you need a weapon to participate in. This one just happens to be about the M-4.
Even with the purpose of the site being what it is it would be negligent to ignore the SME’s, industry types, and combat vets from both sides of the house.
Well this was posted in AR general discussion, where the topic of conversation is the AR rifle… If you want to talk about fitness and nutrition check out that particular subforum on the site (http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=102).
Everything is very well broken down here on m4c. You can pick where you spend most of your time reading/posting according to what interests you.
I dont know if this thread will last due to it being a loaded question, but do browse the site a bit. There are plenty of good discussions going further than eotech vs aimpoint, barrel steel, bolt specs etc…
eta, was typing while seb posted
Yeah, I gotchya man. My post was not necessarily a critique about this particular forum or the technical forum. It was more an observation on the so called “tactical” world in general, and perhaps should’ve been worded better to reflect that.
You are in a chicken joint complaining about too much chicken on the menu.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/
I agree that your words are going to be misinterpreted. This is the internet and we are not speaking face to face. Remember this. M4C is where you go to get, learn,experience the best from the best. That’s why most here stay clear of TOS and forums of the like. I can tell that you want to learn about the platform as much as you can but your delivery is way off for the regulars here.
I always ask people this…What price do you put on you and your family’s life?
It’s a rhetorical question… It’s priceless.
The big picture here on M4C can be said in less than a paragraph.
Here it is…
Bushmaster $850.00 = out of spec junk
BCM $950.00 = in spec and PROVEN
Life of self and family=Priceless
The newbs that come to M4C frustrate the guys around here because there are countless threads here arguing over $100.00 and a lack of research. I am not picking on you or calling you a jackwagon, I am just stating fact about this forum. I have quite a bit of trigger time and I still come here to learn. I give my knowledge to this forum but I definitely take more from it than I can give. Enjoy your membership here. I have learned a TON.
Couple of points...I'm not advocating purchasing cheap red dots, bushmasters, etc. I bet my life on my equipment, as do some of the other people on this site. I use quality AR parts and quality optics, and would never suggest otherwise.
Technical discussions are great. They increase understanding for all involved in the platforms. What I'm criticizing is the tendency for tactical / technique related discussions to turn into equipment arguments. A set of BUIS aren't going to help you if you don't know how to use cover and concealment properly etc. Again, I'm not against talking about the technical aspects of our shared profession / hobby. I'm against equipment / technical arguments taking over every single aspect of it.
There is something to what you are saying, and I enjoy the AK/SKS community a bit more (more down to earth), but you have to also objectively look at the fact that some of them are just trying to figure out exactly what is the best stuff they can buy.
Anybody else want some?:jester:
I think that you missed the OP’s point. Hot butter popcorn is very unhealthy and the butter gets all over my Oly mil-spec M4
Of course, this is firearms forum, so we discuss what gear will work under the harshest of conditions. And honestly, I’d rather plan for the worst and hope for the best. And how many times have you seen people on this forum, including me, say hardware is just hardware? Choose high quality hardware and get to the important stuff; mindset and training. Lots of guys on here say it and say it often, but if you don’t already do that, nothing I say is going to make you do it. There’s plenty of people on here who have experience and understand the mentality it takes, but like everywhere there are some that prefer discussing it. That’s ok, nothing wrong with that. That’s what forums are for.
If YOU think that I would ever use an Oly or a RRA or that my post at all implied that they are acceptable self defense weapons then YOU missed my point. I was arguing against the EMPHASIS that it seems is generally soley placed on equipment and gear. Not that it’s not important, just that it’s not the MOST impportant thing. Just ask anyone who’s been on the wrong end of a Lee Enfield or Mosin Nagant being manipulated by a motivated, experienced marksman (I wasn’t interested in what kind of steel their barrels were made out of). If you enjoy talking about technical specs, which I do as well, then great. But when that conversation permeates every aspect of every discussion, the the discussion suffers.
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I agree with your point above in BOLD.
Your OP sounded arrogant like you were snubbing people that couldn’t run an 7-minute mile or have bad knees or in a wheel chair or are just plain old". Plus it sounded like you were trivializing differences in quality, which a lot of new members have been doing lately to justify their JAGA purchses.
…and your post was a little hard to read running your sentences together. 
There has been a lot of good discussion lately about “not buying gear and shooting more”. But some people do just want to argue.
But maybe it’s just me…
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I get what you are saying. I also believe that discussion of such things is the way people change the industry and the sport/hobby/SHTF community. IE get better training get better gear. Call out bad training Call out bad gear. I also tend to believe that your views are preached by many here including myself more so than you better have 4150 steel or your rifle will fail and you will die. On that note I hope that you join in the conversations we have about training being number one priority then a decent rifle.
However about the SHTF concept. It isn’t always necessarily Zombies and WWIII and I dont really think too much on either however lets remember that not 3 centuries ago this country was involved in a little known conflict with the British. That is in every way a SHTF scenario IMO.
You could have just asked this, in the Fitness forum.
Why would you drive a car into a tree?!!?