It has been 30 years since the infamous FBI Miami shootout with William Matix and Michael Platt which left the both perps dead, also killed were two FBI agent Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan, three other agent were left permanently impair and two others were wounded but recovered. It is probably the most studied gunfight in LE history. It left the LE and firearm world in general with some heavy lessons learned, others that should have been learned and have not, it also generated a few myths. Here is the firefight and some personal reflections…
Still remember that going down. My father knew a couple guys who worked in that office, but none of those directly involved in the shootout. To say it changed almost everything they did and how they did it would be an understatement.
Directly resulted in the MP5/10 and the almost complete abandonment of any service revolver by the entire LE community. They intended to adopt a 10mm Delta Elite as well but determined the round was a bit too potent for most shooters and except for the HRT then went to the .40 S&W.
I remember it as well. They did go with the S&W 1076 in limited numbers until, like you said, it was determined to be too powerful for general use. It was a good case study for the determined criminal mindset. Image if the N. Hollywood shoot losers had half the mindset of Matix and Platt.
Actually the North Hollywood shooters were pretty in the game, they just didn’t follow the exit strategy from Heat which they used as a training video very well and got boxed in.
I don’t think it was a case of Platt and Matix were so hardcore so much as a case of the FBI being too complacent and expecting everyone to shit pennies when they flashed their badge and ID. Feds had decades of being “G-men” and expecting everyone to grab the floor at the mere mention of “FBI”, it had been a long time since somebody pointed a Thompson at them and said “screw you.”
Despite the fact that Miami had been a bit “wild west” for several years most of the guys tailing the “known bank robbers and murderers” that day honestly didn’t expect a shootout in their mind. They really thought they were gonna box em in, point guns and produce badges and “get their man.” They did a “by the numbers” preparation to take down armed bad guys, but when the shooting actually started many agents were shocked and surprised.
As a result one of the few positive outcomes was a change in mindset and training that was carried over to the law enforcement community as a whole that has probably saved more cops than we can ever count. In the early 90s I was training with lots of groups and “combative mindset” was the thing, we had seen it before from guys like Cooper but it always seemed to take a back seat to things like “instinctive / point shooting” or some other consideration.
I have always wondered if this infamous shootout is what prompted Bill Ruger to take the stance he did.
Stories such as this are a reminder of why LE shoot when they do the vast majority of times instead of “why didn’t they just shoot him in the leg”, or “why didn’t they just taze him”, etc.
To quote one of my favorite Westerns . . .
Everett Hitch: “It happened quick.”
Virgil Cole: “Everyone could shoot.”
I think you are pretty much spot on - except the FBI lagged behind most competent LE agencies in terms of modern training practices - by the 1986 most of the agencies had made the transition to auto-pistol - we were probably 60 auto/40 wheel at that point. No doubt the FBI stepped up it’s game, after all it was during this time frame that they invented the Weaver Stance and roll over prone. :sarcastic:
We also need to remember that the FBI had no ‘patrol’ function and at the time whoever said ‘felony stop, let’s do it’ had an idea of what a felony stop was that matched no one else’s. They did fix that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSCE88UhyA
That is Part 1. Part 2 deals with the personal recollections of everyone there. If you watch it, you will notice that Gordon McNeil takes absolutely no responsibility for failing to ensure that his men were wearing vests and were properly armed. The vests wouldn’t have protected against the Mini, put would have protected against the pistol which they also knew was used in the robberies. Remember, the FBI/Dade County knew these guys had been practicing with a .223 in the Everglades, knew they had killed one guy, and knew they had shot another and left him for dead. Disciplining McNeil for his lack of supervision/leadership was not in the cards, the FBI needed heroes.
MP5s in 10MM and 10MM in general is interesting but I think if the FBI had brought CAR-15s; that would’ve been a whole other rodeo.
They already know one guy has a rifle and will shoot. Why try a high risk arrest with pistols.
Same with North Hollywood, it wasn’t until pissed off guys in M4s showed up that it got sorted.
Even if the FBI guys that day had .41 magnum revolvers and 10mm pistols; they were still going up against guys who had a rifle and shotgun
Terrible tactics combined with long guns in the back seats or trunk, resulted in a bad day for the FBI. I have had dealings with the FBI over the years and they never did impress me much. Lawyers and CPA’s with guns. Give me a bunch of guys with a high school diploma that kick ass, every day of the week.
In 86 people were still concerned with background in urban cities and didn’t want to send rifles rounds downrange in populated areas.
It wouldn’t be until the FBI “materials test” that they were able to swap MP5s for M4s. We won’t get into the fact that the “materials test” seemed to contradict every other real world experience of “rifle rounds” vs. “handgun rounds” in terms of penetration of most barriers.
If you are a student of gunfighting and don’t own this, you are wrong:
http://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Analysis-April-1986-Firefight/dp/1581604904
Wow, I knew about the shootout but didn’t know the shot-by-shot details. Ed Mireles is the man. Hit, with one arm out of action, he works a pump shotgun with one hand and empties it into the car. He then draws his handgun as he is going into shock, getting tunnel vision and advances while he empties his revolver by pumping three rounds into each BG ending at point blank range. BGs were shot six and TWELVE times respectively.
I met him at the FBI Academy shortly after they adopted the 10mm, his arm was messed up, I got the impression he was a pretty laid back guy, obviously a lot of drive in that package.
A lot can still be learned from a detailed review of the incident. We used the incident as a training model for a lot of years.
I think that was the mentality the ATF had when Janet Reno sent them to Waco Tx, to arrest David Koresh. For years the AFT had sat on the chopping block and had almost no experience in the field. This was time to prove there worth to congress to keep there funding. The Branch Davidian standoff was a joke. Most unprofessional attempt by a federal agency at enforcing the law, or lack thereof. Some people don’t care if you have a badge and a gun, they see you as just another person.
Even worse, they were going to storm across an open field in broad daylight for the TV crews. The local Sheriff had previously informed him that Koresch could be easily taken into custody the next time he came to town for supplies.
But Reno wanted her moment where she put the inventory of a “stocking FFL” on tables and said “THESE ARE THE GUNS WE MUST BAN…THESE ARE THE GUNS IN THE HANDS OF DANGEROUS RELIGIOUS FANATICS WHO RAPE CHILDREN.”
Turns out she got her TV moment alright, and I guess she saved those children from further sexual abuse when they died in flames. Reno might possibly be the most evil woman in 20th century politics.
that was a failed mission, if I remember right, that started on Thanksgiving day, I was in 6th grade. No probable cause, just speculation. And in the end, Janet and Bill called in Abrams tanks and burned the place to the ground. Everyone including the children were burned alive or shot. Both the Branch Dravidians and the feds were desperate to prove a point.
Wasn’t that the incident that turned everyone away from the 115gr Silvertip 9mm round?
…or pretty much the 9mm round in general?
My memory is rusty, but I believe a 9mm round from Agent Dove’s S&W M59 passed through the upper arm of one of the d-bags and lodged in his chest, just short of the heart. You could almost say that single round eventually led to the .40 S&W cartridge.
C’mon. After 30 years the basic facts should not be incorrect. You should know better.
They went to S&W1076 using FBI-LITE. mP5/10 was not till 6 years later, 1992.
40S&W was not adopted till over 10 years later.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122334NCJRS.pdf
Sorry, didn’t want to try and do it from memory so I used a source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90:mp510-a-40-series&
Also looks like the MP5/10 came online in 1991, not 92.
And The Federal Bureau of Investigation briefly field-tested the 10mm Auto using a M1911 pistol platform and a Thompson Model 1928 submachine gun before adopting the Smith & Wesson Model 1076 in 1990.