A Thompson in 10mm?!
Very interesting
Way more complicated than what most seem to recall.
You have to remember that the FBI was also adding female agents at the time. There was tremendous debates, press, arguments, etc about the 10mm.
By most contemporary accounts, the move to 10mm lite was largely due to Female officer results. Who by most accounts, had similar issues with 357’s as well.
The industry creation of 40 was twofold, it allowed a standard, SAAMI “10mm lite” cartridge, and more importantly, could be used in 9mm doublestack format that was all the vogue. Where 10mm was too long and too high pressure for those same platforms.
I can’t recall why the Colt Delta was not pursued, I think it was mainly capacity. Doublestacks were hot, and considered mandatory by many. But as a longtime delta shooter, it’s more manageable recoil than a 4" SW service revolver in 357.
Move to the 1076, you have a wampus big pistol, large grip, heavy, and (in my view) not the greatest ergos. No surprise it was not loved. I still see them occasionally and marvel at how big they are, almost like desert eagles.
As for all the “why didn’t they just use 9mm?” fans… 9mm at the time was no where near the current technology. JHP’s of the time did not perform well, and worse, LEO had very much lost confidence in it. The idea that you needed a 4 rather than a 3 was still very entrenched (Keith, Cooper, etc)
Had the current crop of 9mm, P+ defense ammo been available there never would have been a 40.
I’ll still take 10mm over 45 (heresy!!!), and still carry a Kahr P40 concealed because I trust it and shoot it well.
But you have to know the era to know how they ended up with their choices.
Same even for CAR-15’s… sole source was Colt, hard to get, expensive, not as reliable as current AR’s, minimal accessories, etc. HK91’s were cheaper than CAR-15’s typically, and a mini was 25% of the cost of a CAR-15. As much as folks rag on mini’s, I shot GB mini’s side by side with CAR-15’s. Not a huge accuracy or reliability difference at the time. (My GB was rock solid for decades) Mag’s were the same price, and only a few beat up M-16 surplus mags were available outside of new Colt mags.
Much has changed since then, obviously!
Hmm, that was my source too:
1992: The MP5 in 10mm Auto and .40 S&W is introduced.
This is an contemporary urban myth.
The truth is in the 10mm story in the LEB.
Pinzgauer,
When we say CAR-15s of the day do we mean the “military” ones with the moderator or the M16A1 Carbines?
I was referring to the M16A1 carbines. I know that some of the moderator ones could be touchy if not properly cared for or properly gas ported.
I have an SP1 carbine of that era that I lube and shoot like my contemporary(as of 2003) 6920 with no issues. I know Colt has had a few lemons but was it a training issue or a maintenance issue?
I’m guilty of tossing CAR-15 out willy nilly (the term) but want to know which ones were considered duds.
In 1986, I was more into my GI Joes and Transformers and thus not in the whole gun scene at all. Plus I was a kid.
I do know that older guys lauded the Mini 14 though.
Well, history is written by the victors. Enough diverse viewpoints on this that I don’t believe the official story. Always interested in a read, though. Sources?
Think the H&K CSwhatever trials folks are debating on now is contentious? Should have seen the M16A2 mess. And the trials that lead to the Beretta 92 selection, etc.
Enough documented smoke on most Federal firearm selection programs that I’m not sure I trust any outcomes, much less the stated reasons.
But I’ll bite, what was the real reason they went to 10mm lite? 
The ones available to LEO at the time were primarily civvy “CAR-15”'s (SP1’s?) as I understand it. Half moon bcg, non-std pins, no FA, etc. And even then most LEO would not touch them due to A) Expense, B) Warlike image, C) Shotgun culture
Then the plastic vs metal stock issue surfaced, forget the details, but the purists hated
I have an SP1 carbine of that era that I lube and shoot like my contemporary(as of 2003) 6920 with no issues. I know Colt has had a few lemons but was it a training issue or a maintenance issue?
Just finicky, plus made worse by beater mags due to limited availability on 30 round mags. This was probably more like '79 when I was exposed to the side by side civvy CAR vs mini’s. My friend still has his CAR.
I’m guilty of tossing CAR-15 out willy nilly (the term) but want to know which ones were considered duds.
I’m not sure I’d call them duds, just not the gold standard they are now. I think mini’s of the era (especially GB’s) were a bit better than now. And the civvy colt’s had some definite issues that have since been addressed.
But at 3X the cost of a mini, and higher than an HK91, the colts did not sell well. Some did, obviously
The gold standard for most of us was the HK, and when they became available, the FN marketed FAL. And you had the M14/M1A CMP crowd. Yes, Apples to oranges.
But my 91 never failed me. CAR-15’s (and the rifles) were not as well regarded.
Had the LEO had access to, or been willing to pursue usage of the mil M16’s it might have been different. Certainly that changed in the SWAT era, but those were usually still civvy AR-15 rifles. MP5’s became hot in what we’d consider the carbine role more than the CAR did.
My point is that LEO acceptance, perceived reliability, and price point were all very different back then. Add to that the “mouse gun” CMP/AMU influence, and just not much love for them.
Remember, it was considered a good thing at the time when bushmaster made their intro, and that was still long before the do it yourself AR thing started.
I see. Plus, I suppose there was the whole post Vietnam stigma.
You’d think people would take essentially 15 years of war in Southeast Asia and put its practicality to use
I guess I’m looking at it from 30 year hindsight. I also totally understand “shotgun culture”. I was SO brainwashed in academy that it wasn’t until taking a real Patrol Rifle course that one can see how limiting a shotgun can be, the only equalizer is slugs but almost no police chief wants to authorize them even though something like North Hollywood would’ve gone way different.
On a side note, I place higher value on a 20 round mag than a 30. 30 has its place but for patrol use a 20 round offers way more versatility for proning out or improvised firing positions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5#Larger_caliber_versions
In 1991, Heckler & Koch introduced the MP5/10 (chambered in 10mm Auto) and MP5/40 (chambered for the .40 S&W cartridge), which are based on the MP5A4 and MP5A5. These weapons were assembled in fixed and retractable stock configurations (without a separate designation) and are fed from translucent 30-round polymer box magazines.
Also a lot of my post of general overview and I wasn’t tying to suggest the MP5/10 came online in 1987 and that the .40 was adopted in 1988 or anything like that. I was simply saying the MP5/10 was created as a result of the 1986 shootout, but obviously there was some R&D involved before adoption and problems with the intended adoption of a 10mm handgun eventually led to the adoption of a .40 S&W.
Back in the 80s I worked on the case from hell. Demons and all, I think.
Anyway, for personal and professional reasons I latched on to a personal “CAR-15”, probably an SP-1, circa 1983. I shot it quite a lot with handloads and never had any issues with it. Bone stock, GI mags, and as mentioned above, NO stinking upgrades of any kind. I eventually sold it as I saw no further need for a weapon of mass destruction.
It was a decent little carbine, and in hindsight, yeah, I should have kept it. About ten years ago I saw the light and replaced it–and thanks to ACOGs I could also see the sights too.
As to the Miami shoot out–it sure got a lot of people’s attention!
Yep, but I still want a picture of the MP5/45. I have heard as many as two exist, not counting the Bill Flemings models. I think that would have been the pinnacle of subgun evolution, but HK was more interested in developing plastic guns at that point.
Here is a Bill gun.
Disclaimer: I am not an FBI employee, nor have I ever been. At one time I had a boss who was a retired FBI agent with connections at Quantico. For about 4 years I made several one week trips to Quantico each year. I spent most of one trip observing the first new agents going through training with the 1076. They were having double-feed problems which several instructors attributed to magazine problems. My brash young butt had been teaching auto-pistol to cops for several years and the malfunctions I saw would have been called shooter induced at home. I kept my yap shut because I was a guest. IIRC, John Hall, then head of the FTU carried a Delta Elite. Mr. Hall got me a 1076 the first day I was there that trip and I was able to put about 200 rounds through it. They were the 10mm Lites. I liked shooting them, but I didn’t care for the ergonomics of the 1076, number one, I’m a lefty, and number two, the grip feels too long (front to rear) and skinny.
John Hall was/is a true gentleman and a great legal mind, somehow I think the 1076 hindered his career.
26, you’re a lefty? I never would’ve suspected.
I actually sort of liked the Sig Style decocker. I don’t know if they made a 45 version like that but it would’ve been nicer than the 4586’s heavy DAO I was started out with.
I don’t know if Hogue makes a grip accomodating such frames.
I was indoctrinated on the .45 pretty heavy but if it were the 80s, I’d likely pursue a 10mm of some sort given the 9mm of the day. But again I have benefit of looking through a 2016 lens
Personally, my read is the 1076 was a rushed product to offer something in 10mm. 1911’s were out of favor at the time. The Bren 10 was mythical and expensive. But folks liked the 10mm concept.
I’m not a 1076 fan. Nor were most reviewers, if I recall. Just a bit awkward.
I shoot mostly downloaded 10mm in the Delta Elite for fun and to save hard to find powder, but have no problems shooting it hot. It stings the hand like a 357 with full power loads, does not rock as much as a 45. Different recoil, not worse. But with 45 equiv loadings (heavier bullets, lower velocity), I’m not sure most could tell the difference between a DE in 10mm and a 45. So to me it has a flexibility advantage, load it hot and flat, duplicate 45, or light 40SW equiv loads.
I’m not sold it was the perfect answer for LEO at the time. But I also don’t feel it was the worst caliber pick either. I could see carrying a 10mm full sized glock as a LEO. It’d be like shooting a 4" 357 with hot loads and twice the capacity. And a bit flatter shooting, less rock due to lower bore.
My recollection of the time was that the first agents to use autos were the field office SWAT teams, originally the S&W 59 series. They next went to the Sig, IIRC fullsized 226 for SWAT and then the compact 228 authorized as an optional gun for agents. The HRT guys used Browning Hi-Powers for a while.
Since the FBI had been allowing agents to carry Sigs (226 or 228) for several years, when they went looking for a handgun for the 10mm, one of the requirements was that it was a side decocker. To me it seemed pretty obvious they wanted Sig to build their new pistol. S&W cobbled the 1006 into the 1076 by adding the decock to the side. And won over Sig.
At least that is what I recall. Here’s something on 10mm - Lite:
Early FBI testing of the full power Norma 10mm Auto round found it was too high-pressure, was hard on the converted 1911 test pistol, and had “unmanageable” recoil levels. FTU personnel purchased 180 grain Sierra JHP bullets and handloaded them at a muzzle velocity of 980 fps. This reduced the recoil to tolerable levels, and the FBI requested the Federal Cartridge company to duplicate this reduced load. This “FBI-lite” round became the standard issue. (lost the link to this)
Yes, early Norma 10mm was fairly hot. But personally, I am suspicious of the “unmanageble recoil levels” bit. They ended up with a load below 45 recoil levels.
this tells me:
- the 1076 was not strong enough
- there were issues with agents handling even moderate recoil levels… 45ACP in 1911’s has been shot by men in uniform for years. So the FBI has to go to a load 20% lighter bullet weight, same velocity as 45 to get “manageable recoil”? I can load 200+ grain bullets to comparable 45’ish velocities in 10mm 1911’s, and (surprise), it shoots just like a 45.
Choice of platform clearly had some impact, I shot 45 in a sig clone for a bit, and it was snappier than a commander, much less a full sized 1911. But probably no worse then even current 9mm LEO loadings in smaller sigs and glocks.
They clearly did not want a singlestack, and 1911’s were very much out of favor at the time. So I don’t know that there were great alternatives, though IMI was doing some neat stuff with 41AE. Which worked fine in 9mm platforms with minimal modification. (Barrel and mag in most cases).
The Sig 220 (BDA) was available in 38 super for some time prior, which could be loaded quite hot and approach 357 performance. (Super-vels, anyone?)
So there were a couple of options. But there were just too many anomalies in the decision for me to believe the published accounts.