I’ve had a hankering for a roller lock for a while now and with the Turkish contract guns being fairly readily available and bereft of the hit-and-miss reputations held by many of the American makers (like Vector), I think I would like to get one.
Now, the issue basically boils down to this: I was originally wanting to do an HK53-alike and SBR it. Maybe have a full-sized rifle to go with it and use for when I’m feeling all special snowflake and heading out of state to do training. Zenith does not import an HK53-alike. So that leaves me with two options: A Z-5 pistol for compactness (either the P-model or the RS-model) or a Z-43 for 5.56mm goodness.
If/when Zenith gets their “custom shop” up and running and 922(r)'ing the Z-43 rifles, I might add one to the collection as the carbine counter-part… or save some pennies and get something from Dakota Tactical for the same role.
So, benefits and drawbacks as I see them of one versus the other:
Z-43:
5.56mm
LGS stocks (inexplicably) HK factory HK33 magazines
Traditional HK diopter: Three peeps and a V
Pinned muzzle brake
Not as compact as I would like, at just over 23 inches… making it only somewhat shorter than a Tavor or my Krebs with the stock folded
It’s going to be loud, even once the brake comes off
Z-5:
Compact - or super-compact
Lots of goodies available: SureFire weaponlight handguards (albeit not for the P), B&T folding stocks, tri-lug flash hiders, &c.
No dinky brake and the whole thing is set-up to be easily canned
Not as blasty indoors
Shorter magazines are available for use in car or deploying from a sneaky bag
9mm
Choice of four peeps or four notches - and I’m not fond of either option
Magazines are not available locally
$175 more expensive at most retailers
Obviously, the Z-5 is going to be more of a niche weapon and lacking somewhat in the “stopping power” department (kept in the car or thrown in a smaller duffel for cross-state travel). But it’s also not going to be as horribly deafening or blinding if touched off indoors or inside a vehicle.
Anybody have any thoughts they’d like to add? Thanks!
Should you buy a motorcycle, or a jetski? I don’t know… buy whatever you want.
Some of this insanity warrants comment, however:
You don’t want to spend money on a Contract gun and then pay some “Custom Shop” labor and parts to junk it out with inferior US commercial parts. The old rods came out easy, and these are said to be easier to remove.
HK53 is a retarded weapon.
Your LGS has '93 mags?? How much?
It’s not a pinned brake… it’s a regular HK flash hider.
It’s not a non-standard handguard… it’s a regular HK33 handguard.
Stock options are basically “all.” You can run an MP5 collapsible (though it will be a little shorter), B&T or Choate sidefolder, cut down G3 stocks, AR adapter… I literally can’t imagine more stock options being available for any other platform.
You’re going to use it inside a car?!? (Holy shit!)
MKE MP5 mags are like $40… POF are like $30… they are the same as HK. ATI mags suck.
More like, should I buy a BMW touring bike or a Harley?
You don’t want to spend money on a Contract gun and then pay some “Custom Shop” labor and parts to junk it out with inferior US commercial parts. The old rods came out easy, and these are said to be easier to remove.
Talk to Zenith or Dakota.
I’m pretty sure no matter what, you’re going to be stuck with putting “inferior US commercial parts” in the gun, unless you’re going to keep it as a pistol. Unless 922(r) was repealed while I wasn’t paying attention.
Your LGS has '93 mags?? How much?
$90. But I have an in and can get them for significantly less.
It’s not a pinned brake… it’s a regular HK flash hider.
You better call Zenith and tell them that they’re wrong about the product that they’re importing. And Tim at MAC while you’re at it.
It’s not a non-standard handguard… it’s a regular HK33 handguard.
Thank you for the useful tidbit.
Stock options are basically “all.” You can run an MP5 collapsible (though it will be a little shorter), B&T or Choate sidefolder, cut down G3 stocks, AR adapter… I literally can’t imagine more stock options being available for any other platform.
It’s my understanding that the stocks are slightly different between the MP5 and HK33/53/93 and that using an MP5 stock in an HK33/53/93 can damage the stock.
MKE MP5 mags are like $40… POF are like $30… they are the same as HK. ATI mags suck.
It depends on which stock. The standard MP5 A3 collapsible - maybe since they can be a little fragile to begin with. Fixed A2 stocks, B&T folders, Choate stocks, Spuhr M4 adapters - no.
Another useful tidbit, however…
The only MKE magazines I can find are the polymer ones. Which apparently aren’t particularly good.
You can find HK factory mags for $38 if you don’t mind older ones from HKParts.net (FYI- they’re perfectly fine). The MKE polymer mags I have are basically 100% reliable. One set has seen around 9000 rounds through them with both a HK94 (converted to SBR) and a POF MP5 (SBR) licensed clone. YMMV, but they aren’t bad mags. The only issue I have seen with them is a tight fit in my friend’s Special Weapons clone, but I would suspect the magwell, bolt and carrier aren’t even remotely close to in spec and that is the issue. The MKE Z5 series is built in a proper factory (not by some guy a shed like some “clones”) to HK spec, so there should be no issues.
The thing with some factory mags is that some numpties on HKPro (sic) and Gunbroker are smoking crack with pricing. They either think that used factory mags are either exceedingly rare and no longer available or the Clinton AWB marked mags are “special” or inlaid with either gold or the silly “LE Only” engravings were etched by hand by Bubba Clinton himself and therefore valued at $90+ are a special kind of idiot, and even worse are the guys that buy them from them. The fact is that you can buy new factory mags all day long for $70 retail (at cheezy retail like Cheaper than Dirt, etc.) and much, much cheaper if you know where to look. The POF mags are apparently coming back in stock at RTG some time in the fall, so perfect copies of factory mags for $30, and the MKE metal mags are available from time to time for $40. Also as an FYI, Brownells sells basically all MP5 parts now at reasonable prices too.
The choice between the two calibers shouldn’t be based on mag prices. Choose based on your needs.
A much better analogy would be a convertible or a motorcycle.
They’re worlds apart.
That’s interesting, because I was told they were not pinned, but I guess they are…
Based on recent imports from other manufacturers though, it would not seem to be a requirement. I wonder what’s going on there.
Unbuffered '93 carrier with just a cap on the end would be bad for the gun, specifically the takedown pin.
Almost all the '93 types you come across today will be using the buffered carrier though.
'93 stocks will have a disk in the back, MP5 stocks will have the H buffer. If you run an MP5 stock on a 93, you will mess up the H where the buffer hits it.
That’s really the only issue that I’ve seen. Reliability is still 100%
The Zenith/MKE guys at SHOT Show told me that the carrier was buffered. Outside of SHOT, I haven’t seen a Z-43 yet, so I don’t know what (if anything) was changed for sales from what they displayed at SHOT. The comp wasn’t pinned at SHOT, (they showed a comp, not the more modern MKE four prong flash hider) so if they are pinning them now, that is one change from then.
The last (probably 1980-90’s design since HK didn’t do much with the 33/53/93 since demand dropped after that) collapsible stock HK did for the 93 also had a buffer and was designed for use with a buffered carrier. The buffer in that stock looks like a standard G3 buffer. You’re spot on with the MP5 stock on a 93. The H buffer in the MP5 stock is an easily replaced $7 part, so damage to it and regular replacement as just maintenance is academic if someone wanted to do it.
I think I’m going to prioritize compactness, so that means one of the 9 mils. Now to pick between the Wrangler (Z-5 RS “MP5”) and the Mustang GT500 convertible (Z-5 P “MP5K-PDW”).
Yeah… I’m bouncing back and forth between light (Z-5 RS) and no light but smaller (Z-5 P - and for what I want to use it for, do I really need a light?).
You can put a light on a K model pretty easily. There are several ways to do it (this also applies to the full size, too. For the regular MP5, the Surefire handguard with the light at 6 o’clock is pretty much the standard):
The easy route is a Surefire rail, which then gives you three mounting rails and replaces the front handguard. This can still be purchased out there as Surefire still makes them. The other solutions are older and you have to look for used or NOS.
Streamlight used to make a small mount that replaces the front handguard retaining pin with a screw and an aluminum light rail as a backer. This was discontinued some time ago, but they come up from time to time. I have this on my K with an X200. I have thrown out the packaging, so I don’t know what the original part number was for a search.
Surefire also used to make an offset light for the K. This also mounted to the cocking tube and had a pressure switch that you can velcro or tape to the pistol grip or handguards.
Surefire M21 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121727644972 Google search found it. There was also a flashlight mount from Pelican that mounted to the front sight post.
There is another solution from Bruegger & Thomet I have seen, but it is pretty pricey. HK Parts has it on this page, along with their rails (and the Surefire, but it is cheaper elsewhere) that they made to fit lights (Keymod and MLOK): http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/MP5K-Hand-gaurds-Forearms-c138.htm
Drill a couple of holes in the original HK handguard and mount a rail with some blind fasteners (T-nuts, etc. with red loctite) and some tape on the back to keep them from scratching the barrel. This is the $10 solution and doesn’t really have any downside. It will keep a light mounted firmly and new handguards for the K should you go back to original are only $40 for German ones.
Something to keep in mind with MP5 (and MP5 K) is that they have been widely adopted, used for a long time, and still in use in many places by MIL/LE. If you need to do something with it, like mount a light, likely there is a solution (or “was” in some cases). Most of these solutions work well for right handed use, since the cocking handle is on the left hand side. For lefties, the mounts that mount to the cocking tube probably give better ergos along with a tapeswitch.
The only MP5 that is tougher to deal with for mounting a light is the MP5SD, but two hose clamps and a RIS lower section work fine:cool:
Got me looking at the Z-5 again - almost bought one of the MKE contract guns 3 or 4 years ago when they were $750 or something… Well under $1k at the time, regardless…
I had thought about the CZ. LGS that has the HK33 mags has one. But I decided against it. Chiefly because it’s not an MP5/MP5-alike. And partially because I will probably end up with the Z-5K, too, anyway.
Anyhue, anybody know if the B&T QD 3-lug flashhider will interfere with a SureFire handguard-integrated weapon light?
Oh, I understand wanting what you want, and know that if you settle for something else, eventually you will go back and spend more to get what you originally wanted. Good luck!
Contract: HK says to MKE, “will you build some of our pattern guns for us to sell to a particular customer?”
License: MKE says to HK, “we will pay you the licensing fee to build and sell your pattern guns.”
I think in this case it’s po-tay-to, po-tah-to: H&K probably got a contract from the Turkish government. The Turkish government likely wanted, as part of the contract, a license to manufacture the weapons in Turkey.
Neither is really the case. The transaction was done between the German government and the Turkish government as foreign military aid. The German government instructed HK to provide a turn-key capability to the Turkish government’s appointed industrial concern (MKE). HK builds their own tooling and machines, so these come as part of the deal. The German government compensates HK. HK and MKE (or HK and POF, or HK and Enfield, HK and MAS, etc.) aren’t in any direct commercial agreements unless those come later.
To answer the question about the B&T flash hider. Yes, it fits. There are two types - the new style that is much slimmer and pretty compact, and the old style that is pattern to the German one, with the big ratcheting mechanism. Both fit fine.
There can be a little play. If it bugs you, just put a little adhesive backed velcro loop on the inside of the handguard where it hooks on to the trunnion. That tightens it up just fine.
Back in the day, guys did that, used layers of tinfoil, and also used a bead of high temp RTV. They all work. I just like velcro loop better since the velcro loop compresses a little and stays in place when the trunnion gets hot. “Hot” is relative as real heat isn’t much of an issue for 9mm, but things can get a little messy depending on the adhesive properties.
