What would you consider acceptable accuracy in home defense or SHTF situation?

General Firearms New to Firearms & Shooting
1

If this is in the wrong forum, then I apologize in advance.

I am new to shooting in general and the AR platform in particular. I have been practicing on bullseye type targets, but I have been wondering what is considered acceptable in a real world scenario when it comes to accuracy. I am using the word accuracy in the sense of how tight I can get my groups around my point of aim (I am not that great of a shot… yet!).

I suppose another way of asking would be the inverse: When does accuracy start to be considered unacceptable for a real world self defense scenario? Obviously, the tighter the groups around my point of aim the better, but realistically what should I be striving for? I may be answering my own question, but I would think it would be at least the average size of a head or torso, depending on what I would actually be aiming for in a real life situation.

Sorry if this sounds extremely ignorant. I just don’t have any buddies who I am able to bounce these questions off of.

2

I think you have two different situations. Home defense is generally considered very close. The other could be close or potentially a lot further.
Anyway, it seems to me that you would want acceptable accuracy for longer shots. That will always translate into adequate close up accuracy.
What do you think is acceptable? An inch group at 100 yard… min 5 preferably 10 shots. That’s benchrest territory.
So, what’s acceptable for you?
Ten rounds, I’d think 3"-5"-8" groups would be pretty darned good especially with iron sights.
JMO.

But, if you can, get your carbine tuned up and spend the money to take a carbine class or two from a good school/instructor. Your eyes will be opened a lot about shooting at paper vs. shooting in a simulated situation. Really.

3

3-4 MOA with mil-spec factory ammo is the reasonable minimum assuming the shooter and optics are not the limiting factor.

4

I’ll bite

As soon as you get your rifle zeroed from the bench (assuming you have all your fundamentals masterd) stand up, shoot standing.

I can only imagine that there will be no bench rests when you need them.

After you can hit your target well standing, start with different drills.

Baby steps, It wont come overnight. I’m living proof ( and i think most will agree with me on that point)

This is the point where I am, and because I do not know of the subject after this point, I’m going to leave it to the pros on here.

5

Most modern firearms perform better than the guy behind the trigger. Purchase a good gun and lots of ammo then take a training class on how to run it. You will soon find out what you need to know to make the combination work.

6

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/70820522563
This is a link to a thread titled “The need for Speed” over on LF. While it’s geared mainly toward pistols, it definitely applies to rifles as well.

Faster speed and better accuracy is always preferred.

Unfortunately no one can shoot their tightest groups of all time, while getting their fastest splits of their life.

So it depends on the situation, and that’s why important to shoot for groups, as well as run drills, and shoot in action type matches so you can develop as an all around shooter.

EDITED TO ADD:
If the price is right take a course… but I’m a big believer that you can learn a lot from a good book. There’s also the MD Dynamics DVD’s that are very good. Either of those plus a camera to take video’s and you can accomplish a lot.

7

I attempted to zero my rifle at 50 yards this past weekend. I would say I was definately hitting the 8 inch target consistently, but I was definately not getting tight groups consistently within that target. I know it’s probably just a matter of practicing the fundamentals in that regard.

I definately like the way the carbine shoots and feels and have quite a bit of ammo for practice for the next couple of months (I travel, so I only get my practice in on the weekends).

I live in KC and have been looking for a basic carbine course that is within driving distance, but I haven’t seen anything in the past couple of weeks. When I searched, it seemed like the closest places may be in Ohio on a consistent basis?

Good point on the ranges within a home. I am working with irons and just trying to nail the fundamentals.

I am definately looking to take a basic class. Just need to find one that I can make it to. I’ve been doing a lot of reading on this site so I have a good idea of what is out there. Just needs to be closer! :slight_smile:

8

Training is key here, bro. Do a ton of reading on this site. Look up the m4c training groups in your region and make it a point to learn the fundamentals like: target acquisition, sight alignment, holdover, shooting positions, etc. If you need any help, don’t be afraid to pm me or any of the other members. Welcome.

9

Yup, definately have been studying this site like crazy. Like you are advising, I am really working on sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and follow through at the moment. Sounds pretty lame, but from what I can tell, that’s the starting point. Thanks for the welcome!

10

Lot of guys make it look easy, shooting on the move, moving form close in to far out targets quickly, etc. It ain’t as I’ve discovered myself.

11

First person to get a good combat accurate hit usually wins the fight, or so the studies say. Studies also elude to fights being in the 3-5 yard range and are over in 3 seconds or so. So I would say a defensive rifle in the 2-3 MOA range and a shooter that is capable of combat accurate hits, with a very good amount of speed.

Combat accuracy is upper center mass if presented. So on a full frontal torso you are looking at about 8"-10" circle centered in the upper chest.

Of course things are a bit different when you hauling ass cause your getting shot at and you are trying to return with accurate fire.

12

Welcome to the sight, It doesn’t sound lame at all! If you don’t understand those things (fundamentals) you cannot be a good shooter. I read articles for almost a year on this forum before I ever signed up. Tons of great material from a lot of very credible people.

To your original post, start doing a ton of dry firing. You will see your accuracy and comfort levels increase dramatically from just dry firing how ever much time you are allowed daily, 20-30 mins each day is about what I do and it is a huge help, not to mention it’s free. Practice reloads and malfunctions (with dummy rounds), transition to pistol, anything and everything you can think of. Start with close targets and then move out further as you get more comfortable. Like everything it will take time and patience but you’ll get it down. Go put a small piece of colored tape on the wall and focus dry firing (trigger control and sight alignment) at that every night, you won’t believe how much more accurate and comfortable you’ll be with your guns. “… Perfect execution of the fundamentals under stress” - Kyle Defoor/TigerSwan

13

2MOA or less at 50 yards is the standard for all carbines I own.

14

Accuracy of the shooter or the gun?

4" at 100 yards for the gun, but under 1.5 inches is much preferred.

Accuracy of the shooter requirement depends on distance, size of target, speed of engagement, etc. While it may appall some here, I would say that you will be fine if you can shoot a 6 inch group at 15 yards with moderate speed. Of course you want to eventually do much, much better, but that gives you an achievable short term goal, and a 6 inch group is plenty small for keeping the rounds in a man’s chest.

If a shooting course is not in your immeidate future, you may want to get some videos, such as from Magpul or Viking Tactics.

15

Upper torso hits as fast as you can make them is acceptable accuracy in an actualy shooting.

Does not matter if it’s an AR or 9mm, no matter what the range. 3 meters to 300 meters.

Go to a 3 gun or carbine/rifle match in your area for some very good examples of fast / accurate shooting.

16

For a start on measuring your cqb accuracy, an improving it, get some standard 8" white paper plates and some 4" desert plates.

Take them to the range and place them one above the other on the backer. If you don’t have a fence or anything to stick them to/on then take a longish, 24-30"x10" wide piece of cardboard and tape/staple them to it.

This will give you targets approximately the same size as the kill zones on a human being w/o breaking the bank.

for an added bit of challenge… get some bell and carlson target stickers ,the one inch orange ones, and put them on the back side of your plates. That way when you’ve finished your string you can check it.

Fun and informative …

17

Mentioning the paper plates reminds me of a suggestion made in one of the gun mags many years ago.

Necco wafers-- they make a great target. About an inch in diameter. And you don’t really have to clean them up. The little critters will enjoy them for your cleanup.

I believe the author set them in a groove cut in a board so they were upright.
Anyway, just a suggestion.

18

I would guess there’s hardly a rifle out there that’s too inaccurate for home defensive use. I have rifles for everything from 50 and 338 Lapua down to 5.56. A SHTF rifle is not necessarily the same as a home defense rifle. For me, I like an 11.5" for the house, but if all went to hell and I needed a SHTF rifle, I’d want at the least a 3 moa gun. This would most likely be a 14.5".

Getting that out of the way, I care considerably more about how fast I can get 4 or 5 rounds into an 8" group at 3 to 50 yards while moving or between movement. The longest area in my home that I would ever need to take a shot is 26 yards. Outside, my property is about 65 yards wide.

I’ve been in two situations where a gun has came out and a third where it came very close and my hand going to it was enough. The two where a gun was involved were within 2 to 10 feet, one was in a car resulting in one shot being fired.

I can’t think of too many home defense situations that I’ve heard about or read that you’d be any farther than up close to 15 yards. A public shooting could cover large distances, but most likely the AR will be at home and we’ll be left with our handgun.

So, what it took so long for me to say, as long as I can keep between a fist to plate size group at MY possible defensive distances while standing, laying, falling, crouching, pleading, praying, etc., the ability to get multiple, accurate hits on target as fast as I possibly can is the most important thing to me.

Statistically, the average shooting is a few feet with only a few rounds fired. This, of course, is an average, and it’s an average for shootings, not gunfights. I would imagine a large number are one or two rounds and a small number of many rounds. Statistics also say, on average, 1 out of 4 of us will be the victim of a violent crime. I’ve been the “victim” of 3. So remember, stats have nothing to do with you, just us as a whole.

19

MOA (Minute of Assailant) should be good enough accuracy. All kidding aside, I think any rifle that will shoot 4 MOA is good enough from social distances out to 250 yards.

20

You know those small paper pie plates? In any situation that’s how big the area is that you want to try to hit on a perp. I would be impressed if anyone can do that consistently though. Any shot that hits your target works in your favor however. The key is getting your first and subsequent shots off quickly while trying your best to keep the shots on the bad guy.

Above all, learn how to use your weapon, what to do in certain types of situations–people teach this in classes–, and practice and train and drill until you die–try your best to make sure it’s from natural causes.