I have been trying to avoid this thread since it is bound to bring out the worst in some people. My only concern with this policy is that it is in addition to everything else a soldier has to deal with during their short time between deployments. I am all in favor of giving the soldiers the most time with their families in between 12 to 15 month combat tours.
The roles soldiers will serve in with this plan are already happening. The only thing new is that they are pinning it onto a specific unit. It also justifies additional training and resources to cover more possible contingencies.
I wore this country’s uniform so you and DarrinD can spare me the lectures.
Do you two think “relief” efforts is where military use on domestic soil is going to end? If so you are both extraordinarily naive.
And no, my attitude would not change if the military (or anyone from the federal government) came to “help”. I don’t need nor want their help. That is why I work, save, and prepare.
My problem is seeing my country (the one I served in the Navy) turned into a third world junta. This is exactly how that regression begins: more power for the Army.
Just because one wears the uniform does not mean he has ANY insight as to what the operational and strategic goals of the military are (in this case humanitarian assistance in CONUS due to natural disaster). So if you take my comments as a lecture then perhaps you are sensitive to critiques of your position.
As for not needing “their” help, you have the right to decline it. No sweat off my back and actually would probably make someone else’s job much easier. Good on you.
Finally, I think that if the active duty military were to be used more in CONUS some laws would have to change. I also think a lot of servicemembers would take issue with being used in a manner that violates Posse Comitatus. I know I would.
Having done both, dont be that worried. The kids will obey their TLs and SLs. In fact the kids are scared shitless of stepping out of line. So if anything they tend to err on the side of being extremely polite and courteous. Much more so than the LEOs that they will be working with and under. Mind you when I did this (hurricanes Andrew and Opal) I was no longer title 10, but title 32. The title 10 troops were left with picking up the garbage.
Ok funny side bar. Hurricane Andrew. I’m recently off active duty and now in the the FLARNG. We are in the LEO support role (running road blocks at night, traffic control during the day, patrols at night, nabbing looters during the day, etc…). Well the 82nd gets deployed down there after week one. Of course they come down there with their attitude that they are the best of the best of the best. They are itching to billy bad ass it on the scene and are pissed that they are limited to picking up trash. One night while patrolling we find them walking around with axe handels, branches, etc… We’re like “WTF are you idiots doing here? Get your ass back to your assembly area!” They are none too pleased and let us know in a most emphatic manner, but they have to comply. We escort them back to their vehicles and they leave.
In revenge next day: Were running a disaster relief point at 416th (st or ave, I cant remember) and US1. Were handing out all sorts of donated supplies to the people. Many times we’re approached by folks wanting to talk. No problem it helps them deal with the situation and we’re more than happy to oblige. Well one of em asks about the soldiers with those ‘funny red hats’. We’re like “Oh you mean those maroon berets? Well that’s easy. It means that they are in the Army band. If you want you can go up to them and ask them what instrument they pay. They are quite proud of their role of providing music and might be induced to play something for you”. So the civilian did go over there and asked and they were polite enough in their response. However the looks WE got from the 82nd were hilarious. Yeah we could be bastards
The fact that those operational and strategic goals are being discussed in any context other than defense against foreign attack are reason enough for me to worry.
I happen to be an attorney who has studied the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so does that give me any special position to tell you to “spare ME” any lectures on what the military can and can not legally do. If you don’t like it, fine . . . get up on your roof and just sit there during a flood with a sign that says “Don’t rescue me federal military, I’m waiting for my local PD.” That didn’t work out so well for the people in NO in the aftermath of Katrina. But since you’re prepared, “good on you” as Charger stated.
When you get right down to it, you have a paranoid fear that permitting these types of humanitarian efforts will turn our nation into a “third world junta.” Whooaaaa! I respect your service and that you wore the uniform, but that’s all you did - that alone gives you no special insight into this issue. Now, if we were talking about whatever your specific experiences and commands were in the Navy, that would be different. So, call it a lecture or a reality check, but I won’t stand by while someone trashes our enlisted soldiers who are (1) acting within existing law and (2) trying to HELP fellow Americans.
Lets see, thats where their work has stopped in the past, then you have those pesky laws that prevent it, so yeah, thats where it will end barring the end of the constitution being the governing document of this nation. If that happens there is a shit load more to be worried about than federal troops patrolling the area.
Well you should have been worreid then since at least the 80s. Heck you may need to feel guilty as you were a part of those plans when you were in.
Barring a federalization of troops and a declaration of martial law by the President (about as likely as me winning the lottery), all that could happen (out past curfew) is the following: NG troops (by law it can’t be active army, MC, etc…), working under the supervision of an LEO, see you off your property. They stop you. They either return you home or they detain you for interviewing by the LEO. LEO then makes final disposition (arrest or sending you on your way). Keep in mind that even NG troops do not have any arrest powers. They can only detain you until an LEO is able to investigate the situation. To be honest best to be picked up by NG troops any ways. Having worked with several agencies, some were good to my then 22 year old eyes. Some (like Metro-Dade) appeared to be freaking assholes in how they dealt with the public. Now that Im a bit older and wiser, I understand where they were coming from and the stresses they were under and considering it all, I can dig how they were past the ‘nice-nice’ phase when dealing with the dirt bags we were encountering.
Now you are sitting on your front porch past curfew. The NG troops see you, then you wave at them and they wave at you. They stop, see how everything is going, tell you to be careful, remind you that there is a curfew and that you need to remain on your property and are on their way (this is a generalization of what happens).
I intentionally broke curfew multiple times last week here in Houston. Curfews belong in North Korea and other police states.
However there’s a big difference between what NG troops and police were doing after Katrina(outright theft of firearms from law abiding people), and what they did here in Houston(unarmed, uniformed, and polite men and women giving out MRE’s and water.)
Do I think we’re seeing a trend of militarization of non military things in the US? Yes, but I don’t think giving aid to people is past the line.
It has nothing to do with “tinfoil hatish”. The point is these are kids. I was 18 when I went into the service. When I graduated from OSUT. I was a 18 year old kid who could March, Shoot a few weapons, and yell “yes sir” or “yes sergent”. When I graduated from jump school, I was still an 18 year old kid who knew how to exit a C-130 properly.
the point is maturity. why not have 18 year old police officers??
When I was an 18 year old PVT. I and every one of my fellow 18-19 year old enlistedmen thought we all were bad ass paratroopers who could take on the world. Looking back 19 years later.; we were dumb ass kids just following orders.
How long ago was that? I agree with the decision making processes that an 18 year olds have are far more immature than the Plt Sgt/Cmdr but todays young people are vastly smarter and better trained than most who have left the service (excluding those who recently left) give them credit for.
But whatever, you know what you know and that works for you.
I am currently assigned to a Civil Affairs Battalion in the Army Reserve (we have counterparts in the Active Army as well). Of all the units in the Army, Civil Affairs units are the most applicable in times of disasters such as experienced by those hit by Katrina and Ike. Our job is to assess what a community needs and do our best to make it happen regardless of where it may be. If we’re good enough to be sent to foreign lands to provide this type of service (under fire no less), what gives hypocritical ignoramuses like you the right so say that we cannot or should not be allowed to provide the same HUMANITARIAN service to our own communities? :mad:
You can bitch, moan, and thump your chest and all you want right now. But when your loved ones are sick and slowly dying from dysentery because you have no access to clean water, food, or medical treatment; I can guarantee that you’ll be kissing our butts when we offer you the very lifeline that might save your family members from death or disease.
Do us a favor, if (God forbid) your community ever suffers such a disaster, you should put up a sign that states: “I will not accept any type of assistance from the U.S. Military!!” so that we can bypass your home and put our efforts towards helping your neighbors who appreciate out efforts. If you’re in a flood zone, make sure you put the message on your rooftop so that Army or Army Reserve Aviator can clearly read it and move onto the next group of disaster victims. :rolleyes:
ADDED: I personally don’t think that the Military, outside of the National Guard, should be involved in any kind of Law Enforcement activities unless asked to do so by the State or local government or in defense of their own personnel. JM2CW.
Because the Klintonites passed a law that makes it difficult to hire someone who is younger than 21- years old. Basically, if you were to hire someone less than 21 to be a cop, they would have to leave their issued handgun at the station once they took off the uniform because they cannot by Federal Law possess a handgun. While this works for Corrections officers and Jailers (most aren’t issued handguns anyway); it puts the Street Cop in serious jeopardy.
I personally think it’s very hypocritical to tell an 18-year old that they can do LEO things on a military base or in some foreign land armed to the teeth; but they are not good enough to be a cop or even legally possess a handgun in their own country. But that seems to be the demokratic party way. JM2CW.
There are states that allow the hiring and certification of 18yo officers, and have <21yo LEOs working their streets.
Provisions of federal law/regulation you allude to pertain to the purchase/transfer of handguns and handgun ammunition, not simple possession.
I personally think it’s very hypocritical to tell an 18-year old that they can do LEO things on a military base or in some foreign land armed to the teeth; but they are not good enough to be a cop or even legally possess a handgun in their own country. But that seems to be the demokratic party way. JM2CW.
It’s a much larger discussion, but it made sense in my mind when I began seeing the relative differences in training minimums, structure and supervision, regulation, discretion, the many accountabilities, and civil liabilities between the two.
The older I get, and/or the more cops I interact with, the older I think new LE recruits ought to be.
