Grant i want to ask you a question…What are your views on Clint Smith?.. Rob Pincas(sp)? from Vallhia(sp).In terms of there training views?.Also, does you wife train with you also? Pat Rogers,ect(The same trainers that you train with?).
No opinion on Clint or Rob as I have not trained with them. I hear that people like them though.
My wife doesn’t have time for her own hobbies/interests so training is off her radar. She does listen to my crazy low light/cqb training stories though. Does that count?
My view on Pat Rogers is that he is an excellent choice for someone looking to take a basic carbine or pistol (maybe one of the best).
For intermediate/advanced classes, Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers are the best from what I have seen.
C4
I could see Grant talking to his wife about the courses and then shes like "Ok, but the little one need’s changeing"lol lol.Sorry NOT make fun of your family at all, Its just i go though the same thing.Do Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers train with rifle too?(as im ASSumeing they do).And do you think their training is differnt or better then Pat Rogers?
Kids are a VERY big part of her day. She also does all the accounting and web updates for G&R.
Ken and Larry do both pistol and rifle.
In some ways their training differs and in some ways it is the same. To say who is better is really in the eye of the beholder.
The reason that I recommend Pat over Vickers (for instance) on the basic stuff, is that Pat goes through the basics in a very repetitive manner that allows new shooters to quickly understand and grasp the concepts. Vickers idea of “basic” is zeroing ones sights and then he is off to box drills. 
New shooters that have never been through a shooting class, can feel overwhelmed by how fast Vickers moves along.
C4
So you would you suggest IYHO that i should take a Pat Rogers course First.Then take Vickers class after i feel im ready for the next level?
Yes.
C4
Also, i train in MMA 2,1/2 yrs and also KRAV MAGA.If you dont train in that i would say give it a try… nothing like looking at another person in a cage Knowing that your about to go at it, if that doesnt get your heart rate going, i dont know what will.
Thanks for the info.
Grant, I completely respect your opinion, especially since I have not trained with Pat, but I’m a bit surprised. I have trained with LAV once or ten times as well as several other instructors and I would recommend LAV over EVERYONE because of his focus on the basics and accuracy above all.
In my opinion a brand new shooter should focus on accuracy first, and everything else compliments the ability to deliver well aimed shots. I have never trained with anyone that can articulate the basics of marksmanship and diagnose a student as well as LAV. Every round a student shoots without a basic understanding of marksmanship is instilling less than optimal habits which will have to be addressed at a later date. I’m speaking from my own experiences. I had spent thousands of dollars on training and still didn’t know how to shoot accurately. (no comments from the peanut gallery ) In hind sight I would have taken classes from LAV and then done all the others.
Maybe it was the type of course(s) you have taken with LAV?? I would agree that in some of his intermediate courses he moves right along with the curriculum but his basic classes are geared to just that, the basics.
Again, this isn’t anything against Pat, and I have nothing bad to say about him because I haven’t trained with him, but of all the instructors I work with, LAV is the first choice for a new shooter. From what I’ve seen in AAR’s of Pat’s classes a shooter with a grasp of basic marksmanship and safe gunhandling would benefit tremendously from classes from Pat.
Just my thoughts,
I don’t mean to speak for Grant, but I think you took the wrong meaning from his post.
The meaning I took was that PR was a good choice to go to for your carbine fundamentals.
I am pretty sure Grant holds no other trainer in higher regard than Larry. If I am wrong, I know that he’ll be by to correct me.
Yeah, I may have. It is the internet.
Maybe I have a different opinion of the definition of “carbine fundamentals”.
I’m REALLY not trying to start a "instructor x is better than instructor y conversation. I think all instructors bring something to the table, although some will be taking home leftovers. I guess I’m just saying, in my opinion, everything about shooting, gunfighting, competition, etc. all begins with hitting the intended target.
This discussion reminds me of a tv commercial airing several years ago with a kid on a basketball court doing all these great moves and looking like he’s auditioning for a spot on the AND 1 tour and when he throws a pass to a teamate the ball launches into the stratosphere. The point of the analogy is everything comes second to accuracy. No matter how fast your draw stroke is, how many ways you can clear type 3 malfunctions, no matter how many AR variants you have in the safe, it doesn’t mean a thing unless you can hit what you’re aiming at. No one teaches and instills this in a new student better than LAV.
AGAIN, this isn’t anything to do with PR. I’m just saying that if I could have ANY instructor teach the fundamentals it would be LAV, and then a laundry list of instructors can compliment, and hopefully enforce, the same mindset while adding to the toolbox.
Please continue. I know we are straying a bit from the original discussion but I think some very good points can be made here.
You are of course entitled to your opinion on this. Pat Rogers is ALSO focused on the basics and accuracy above all else. I have spoken to LAV many times about teaching students that have never been through a shooting school prior to his. While he does accept these students into his classes, he would prefer for them to have good fundamentals prior to coming to one of his classes. This allows him to focus more on accuracy, moving and shooting, etc instead of explaining what the difference between a tac reload and speed reload. Or that people should be downloading mags to 28rds.
To drive my point home, I expressed a desire to conduct BASIC one day pistol, AR and shotgun classes (in my local area) in an effort to get new shooters interested in training with people like Vickers. He thought this was a great idea and fully supported it.
In my opinion a brand new shooter should focus on accuracy first, and everything else compliments the ability to deliver well aimed shots. I have never trained with anyone that can articulate the basics of marksmanship and diagnose a student as well as LAV. Every round a student shoots without a basic understanding of marksmanship is instilling less than optimal habits which will have to be addressed at a later date. I’m speaking from my own experiences. I had spent thousands of dollars on training and still didn’t know how to shoot accurately. (no comments from the peanut gallery
No question. Accuracy, weapon manipulation, safety, etc are all key elements to focus on. LAV covers these all very well (maybe the best).
Maybe it was the type of course(s) you have taken with LAV?? I would agree that in some of his intermediate courses he moves right along with the curriculum but his basic classes are geared to just that, the basics.
M4C brought Vickers to Ohio for a 3 day BASIC carbine course. Shooters in the class that had never been through such a thing made the comment to me that Larry moves very quickly. LAV made the comment to me that when I said that this course needed to be “basic” I wasn’t kidding.
IMHO, Vickers idea of “basic” anything is what other trainers would call intermediate. His mid-level courses are what other trainers would call advanced.
I personally am very happy that I went through Pat Rogers pistol and carbine classes prior to training with Vickers. This allowed me to focus more on what he is trying to teach instead of figuring out how to properly do a transition, reload a weapon or clear a malfunction.
Again, this isn’t anything against Pat, and I have nothing bad to say about him because I haven’t trained with him, but of all the instructors I work with, LAV is the first choice for a new shooter. From what I’ve seen in AAR’s of Pat’s classes a shooter with a grasp of basic marksmanship and safe gunhandling would benefit tremendously from classes from Pat.
Just my thoughts,
Fully understand. I personally feel that LAV is the best instructor I have ever had and have gotten the most out of his instruction.
C4
You are 100% correct. I speak to LAV on a frequent basis and regard him as one of the very best instructors in the country.
C4
Right on Grant, I understand where you’re coming from. I’m sure at the end of the day a student would be well ahead of the power curve from training with both, as well as others.
Funny you mention being able to focus on what LAV had to teach because you had other training and I was going to say the opposite. In other words, a student can focus on the transitions and malfunctions if he/she had a handle on the accuracy. I should have kept this discussion in terms I can understand. a+b=b+a. Simple algebra.
Have a good one,
I guess what I mean about knowing how to do the basic things (like transition, mag change, etc) is that I view these things as EASY and accuracy the hard part. If people can get these basic things down, then they are less concerned with them and can work more on their accuracy.
For me, changing mags or transitioning quickly is easy. Putting rounds in the X ring is not.
C4
In addition to pistol and carbine, Ken Hackathorn also teaches submachine guns and shotguns. Ken taught a great shotgun program for us a few years ago, he teaches similar techniques that Rob Haught does.
Not everyone has your background. IIRC you posted elsewhere, you never shot Service rifle. Lots of marksmanship but very little manipulation and mindset. It takes all three.
I have actually shot service rifle/high power, but never in a competition though. I found it boring and a waste of time.
I believe that Vickers refers to it as “fantasy power.”
C4
Fantasy Power… That’s good!
Rmpl
I’ve been to courses that were fun. With Larry, I felt like it was more like work. Like the man says “you may not get what you WANT, You will get what you NEED.” I don’t think I have ever herd anything as accurate as that. I came out the other end a better man…
“It is no wonder that you were able to brake the worlds most reliable machine gun!!”