Times change, do you?

Training Training and Tactics
1

I had a spark after sifting through numerous old posts on a recent topic here. It really dawned on me how fast things can change, either to an individual or as collective/institutional knowledge.

I forgot that it was only a few years ago that I was using three-point slings, VFGs almost touching the mag-well, 12 HK magazines stuck to my armor, and a white-light mounted at 6 o’clock. All while knowing that I was on top of the whole business. I had gone to some dangerous places and prevailed in bad circumstances. I was a good shooter and trusted instructor. I had learned from some of the best around. But that doesn’t change the fact that techniques, items, and skills evolved away from what I was doing/using then.

Not all things have drastically changed, some of it is pretty subtle, such as my grip on a pistol, or shoulder transitions and how I have my sling set-up. In fact, I would say that most skills have simply been tweaked and honed, not completely revised. Some of the big things are with gear. Things that we thought were great turned out to be mediocre (HK mags) and some things that were under-stated turned into the killer app (Aimpoint Micro).

Maybe I am just lucky in that I am exposed to a lot of different people, organizations, and nations. Maybe I am just lucky in that I have a job that lets me play with guns and shoot a lot to develop and hone technique and skill. While I think that those are aspects that have enabled the process I would have to say that the single thing that I has most promoted progress is willingness. I am willing to listen to what others have to say, see what they do, and try it.

One nice thing is that I have a steady supply of students to experiment with little tweaks and watch how they perform, with a database for comparison.

I have also gained a tremendous amount of information as far as civilian spec AR platfroms (and FALs ;)) go. I didn’t know until about three years ago how very different they are from the guns in our armories. Hell, I can even remember a time I recommended that a buddy get a DPMS because, “ARs are ARs, and parts is parts!” :eek: Wow. How much we have learned, how far we have come.

So how are the rest of you doing? Where have you trained? What have you learned? What have you changed? How has your knowledge changed your gear or your interaction with it? What are your goals and how do you intend on reaching them and setting new goals?

2

My training came to me over the last 20 years from the US Army, I enlisted when I was 17 and then went on to serve with the US Navy (assigned to Marine Corps units), I am a medic by training.

The tactical training that medics undergo has changed drastically, especially in the last 4-5 years.

My weapons had completely changed from the M16A1 and an ancient 1911, to the M16A2, M9 and the last weapons I was assigned was an M4.

I am medically retired due to injuries, but my current personal weapons reflect a lifetime of training and I am always learning new things about the platforms and add ons to gain the tactical advantage.

Im my civilian life I have trained with our State Police, FBI HRT, and local agency special operations teams.

3

What have you learned?

There really isn’t enough space to detail all of it. I’ll break it up into three basic sets of knowledge:

  • Gear

I’ve never considered myself a guy who was really knowledgeable about gear. Hanging out here has pretty much proven that I’m not a gear guy. I marvel at the level of knowledge some of the guys around here have about weapons and gear. I can barely tell AK clones apart, but there are guys here (Like Templar and TheKatar) who can tell you what riveter was working in the factory when they were produced. It’s unreal. So there I’ve learned the depth of my ignorance and who I can get a straight answer from. That’s come from reading the threads here and from spending time around some of the people behind the screen names.

  • Skills

After one class with Vickers I realized that my skillset was nowhere near what I thought it was. I basically had to throw out everything I thought I knew and I had to start again from scratch. After several courses and a lot of practice I’m just now beginning to think that I’ve got a grasp on the basics.

  • Mindset

In the last couple of years I’ve had the opportunity to spend time listening to people like Larry and Ken Hackathorn in courses where they share their considerable wisdom and experience. My thinking on a number of matters has either changed considerably or been refined significantly by digesting what they had to say. That’s part of the reason I write out those absurdly long AAR’s, mainly as a means to document what I extracted from the experience. Dave Pennington’s Concealed Carry class was also beneficial in helping me figure some things out.

The discussions here have been useful as well. I can’t accurately count how many times I’ve looked through a discussion on this site and thought “Gee…I never looked at it that way before.” The input from our SME’s and IP’s here is of inestimable value to those smart enough to pay attention to it.

What have you changed?

My carry guns, my carry gear, the way I practice, the way I think, you name it.

What are your goals and how do you intend on reaching them and setting new goals?

My main goal is improvement. In my mind I have a lot of room for improvement in my proficiency with a firearm, especially when it comes to handguns. I want to be faster, smoother, and more accurate. To that end I’m pursuing further training opportunities. In August I’m (hopefully) going to be training with Todd. I’m looking to train more with LAV and Ken Hackathorn. Sooner or later I’m going to find my way into a course with Travis and Chris.

I’d also like to work on my driving and DT skillsets.

4

I have learned the difference between stupidity and ignorance, in this realm. I used to be stupid, and now am just ignorant. I now know what I do not know, and have yet to learn. Previously, I was one of the window-lickers that thought they had it all down, since I was a former grunt.

Tactics, techniques and equipment have advanced greatly from the muskets and pikes we used to carry when I was on active duty.

I have learned to keep my cakehole closed, and to STFU and take copious notes when someone takes the time and effort to teach me something. And I try and tear it apart a dozen different ways, to see how I can best use it. And then I sincerely thank them for their time and efforts.

I chose my screen name for a reason. I want to be a serious student of what will hopefully never again be a life-saving skill.

My best regards to all those that I have learned from. This place is a storehouse of riches.

5

To echo F2S, I have learned the value of willingness. It is sometimes hard for me to overcome my stereotypes, but I am finally overcoming that. After a long hatred of glocks, the accolades given to them on this forum were enough for me to try one out. I recently replaced my 1911 for a G19, and I have found that I shoot it better and I can carry it concealed much more easily. I have upgraded from inferior gear, from my ARs to the slings that carry them. It’s too bad some of my unit’s SOPs have also changed contradictory to what I feel is best, but I just have to adapt and overcome this. I guess, I have taken a more “no compromise” attitude towards gear, TTPs, training and learning. Willingness and not compromising are now interdependent ideas, as I continually seek to find the best solution for a given situation.

6

you said a mouthful there!

If I won the lottery tomorrow I’d still open a gun shop, but only because my mortgage and car payments wouldn’t be reliant on same. Peeling back the curtain just the tiniest bit, and seeing what I’ve seen since I started writing, shows me that I would never want my family’s well being to be dependent on that industry. Even the writing is something that I’m happy to get paid for, but wouldn’t want to (and frankly couldn’t) live off of.

I know I’d be happiest in the gun business, but only if I didn’t have to rely on it to eat.

7

I learn new things about the guns, gear and shooting everyday.

With an open mind I look at how I’m doing things. I look at newer way to do things and try the newer things and if they work continue to use them.

I’m constantly looking at efficiency of motion looking to see where time is being wasted. Trying to figure out if I should change how my guns and gear are set up. This is a never ending evolution.

I’ve trained under Greg Wodack, Phil Strader, SDI (Travis Haley), BlackwaterUSA, Vickers Tactical and Magpul Dynamics.

I consider myself a never ending student.

8

I definitely agree with you here. At the beginning of this year, I thought it would great to get proficient with different firearms … AK, AR, 1911, other Semi pistols, long range precision, etc etc. I got more to reading here on M4C and decided that I would never reach my goals trying to master so many different types of weapons, plus how costly it would be to get training on so many different platforms. What really pushed me over the edge was realizing all the different training elements available through different instructors. I’ve then dwindled my 15+ firearms to only 6.

16in AR
10.5in AR
Glock 17
Glock 19
Kimber TLE/RL II
AI AE .308

I only carry the Glock 19 for CCW. I have the Glock 17 because the Police departments I applied to carry the Glock 17. I plan to use the G17 for competition. After reading this thread, I’ve decided to push myself to take ToddG’s course here in VA this upcoming August if there is still room. This will be my very first class and I’m very excited. Like Rob has said, I plan to take 1 carbine class to every 2-3 pistol classes since I’m more to use the pistol versus carbine.

9

I’ve learned that “advanced” is just a mastery of the basics.

I’ve learned that all instructors/schools are not equal.

I’ve learned that I don’t really need a huge carbine skill set.

I’ve learned I need to focus on my CCW handgun, and 100 rounds of really good practice is priceless compared to aimlessly blasting with a carbine.

I’ve learned that if I shoot the civilian target to just call them collaborators. :wink:

M_P

10

In a very general sense, I have learned how much I don’t know. The more training I acquire, the more it seems I want/need to know. This has also highlighted the importance of having someone outside of myself (the instructor) watching what I do. I always seem to progress more quickly under the watchful eye of a skilled instructor than I ever can running my own drills.

I am also learning to lean more on what I do know as a BS filter. Now when I am training and I hear some new info or technique, it is easier to pass it through the filter of what I know to work. It makes it much easier to separate the peppercorns from the rabbit turds.

Some more specific item would be that I have changed how I grip a handgun. I used to do a sort of modified thumbs tucked grip on my Glocks in order to avoid contacting the slide stop. Recently I have been using a more traditional thumbs forward grip. I was having difficulty progressing past a certain level with the old grip but the new grip is already paying dividends (at least on the shot timer).

I also took the time to reacquaint myself with vertical grips. When I was new to this stuff, I had them on all my rifles because they were cool. I used those things like handlebars on a bike to steer my rifle and ended up muscling shots all over the place. I ended up taking them off after day 1 of a 3 day course. That was about 6 years ago. Recently, I have been reading about more effective ways to deploy them - gripping it like the support hand grips a handgun and using it to pull the carbine into the shoulder. The results have been phenomenal. I am seeing real gains in shot to shot speed.

11

I haven’t changed very much at all. I’ve been lucky enough to train under instructors who don’t pay a whole lot of attention to the latest and greatest aftermarktet crapola.

None of my instructors are “on the flow”. I.E. they don’t get free products from a company and then tell the class YOU HAVE TO HAVE THIS PRODUCT.

I never went though the 3 point sling fad. I’m not wrapped up in the single point fad either. Most of the time my instructors have been down to earth and recommended methods and gear that fit our role… not the role of a tac team or special forces team.

I’ve made minor changes, but I’ve never really had to wander from a basic, reliable carbine with a two point sling, good ammo, and a light or two. :cool:

12

Over the past 2-3 years?

I won’t even touch on the carbine stuff. Pretty much, everything.

Pistol:
[ul][li] totally reversed my opinion & technique in terms of where/how I put tension on the gun for recoil management
[/li][li] spent a lot of time playing with different reload methods, specifically in terms of where I put the gun during a reload
[/li][li] focused on speeding up the beginning of my draw so I could spend more time getting things right at the end of my draw
[/li][li] completely changed how I scan after shooting (thanks Simon G.) and how I status check after scanning (thanks F2S)
[/li][li] Two years ago I was telling my friend Chris G. he was literally the single dumbest guy I knew for wearing a striker-fired gun in an appendix holster. Two months ago I was wearing a striker-fired gun in an appendix holster.
[/li][/ul]

13

I agree with FMF Doc. I am a medic in the Army. I joined at 18 in 1987. There have been changes over the last twenty years but those changes were incremental and slow. Since the invasion of Iraq tactics, techniques, and tips (TTPs) have changed drastically. For nearly 20 years I wore a simple LBE with two canteens and ammo pouches. Now my kits can be configured over a 1000 different ways. I started out with a brand new M16A1 then turned that in for a brand new M16A2. I carried a M9 in Germany and finally graduated to dual carry (M4 and M9). After years of Iron Sights I was issued a M68 and learned to use that to great effect. Medics aren’t always asssigned to line units so I had a period of time serving in clinics and hospitals. During that time (roughly four years) equipment, uniforms, and weapon philosophy changed drastically. There was a time when a soldier would get issued a duffel bag and a rucksack full of gear. Now a soldier can expect to get three duffels and rucksack full of gear. Medical training philosophy has also changed. Medics are now taught at the institution level to fight until they can safely treat/evac the wounded. Tourniquets are now the first choice for bleeding control and there are many more tools in the old aidbag that didn’t exist just ten years ago. Every soldier gets a set of NVGs now. I remember when only Track Commanders got the NVGs. I guess the biggest change I have seen is the synchronisity of civilian security/LEO AR-15 and pistol TTPs with those of the military. I warmly embrace any change or TTP that will bring my soldiers and myself home alive and in one piece.

14

My training is in a constant state of evolution, and a life long journey in the pursuit of (even though I will never achieve it) excellence. I see training as adding additional skills, or a refinement of those skills, and or gear. I’m not a “true believer” of anyone’s particular camp or methodology. I firmly do not believe in “The Way” approach to training, which a lot of shooting academies and trainers, appear to be doing. It’s probably why I gravitate towards real world military trainers. I try to stick with the practical, and build on efficiency, as it applies to me. My goal is to hopefully, develop a good set of tools in the “toolbox” to fall back on, if the situation ever arises. My carbine skills are pretty decent and I’ve had quite a few pistol classes over the years, but have inadvertently subordinated my pistol skills, to my carbine training. I need to balance out my overall training and include more pistol training with different instructors so I’m not trapped in one particular school of thought. I currently try to balance out a range session, with both carbine and pistol shooting. I also need to get back into martial arts and include some combat first aid training. Unarmed combat is a skill we very seldom address or practice. I’m not really into fads per se, but if a practical/efficient technique surfaces during training or someone who I may come across during range play, or a piece of kit that is more efficient than what I’m currently using, then I am all for it.

15

SAME HERE! :frowning:

16

I don’t have time to make a meaningful post, but I’m going to make this a stuck thread, at least temporarily, as I feel it has some outstanding content.

17

I’ve learned that the single most important skill for a student is critical thinking about the skills and techniques a trainer teaches, and the drills used to teach them:

  1. What is my mission? The primary possibilities are military, police and private citizen, with endless possible variations within each group.

  2. Does this skill or technique make sense for my mission?

  3. Do the drills employed help me learn the skill or technique?

Skills and techniques that don’t support your mission, or drills that don’t help you learn the skills and techniques you do need, may be cool. But they do have a cost in terms of time that could be better spent on other skills, techniques or drills.

Much the same goes for equipment, as several here have touched on.

For example, I tried a Redi-Mag for a 2-day class this weekend with InSights Training Center. People who have to carry the carbine around their necks all day have legitimate reasons not to like the device due to its added weight and because you have to manipulate the gun differently. On the other hand, people who have to carry carbines around all day also usually wear spare mags on their belts or chest rigs.

For those of us who don’t carry carbines and spare mags all day, the Redi-Mag makes a lot of sense. If you have the gun, you have a reload. I had to learn new ways of handling both speed and tactical reloads, and some slight changes to malfunction drills, but those tradeoffs make sense for my “mission” as a private citizen.

18

Very true. I’ve found that everything you do in addition to regular square range shooting doubles your groups (or more). Start moving, doulbe the group. Low light on the move, double it again. Stress? Double it again if not more. That’s why the fundamentals of grips, stance, sight alignment and trigger control mean so much.

Quite so.

That, to me, is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. So many places seem so focused on the carbine because it’s neat and easy to shoot. But pistol is so much more applicable to daily life for the vast majority of us. It’s also harder to shoot, so less fun. I wonder what guys really learn when I see classes with 1000+ rounds of carbine fired and <200 of pistol. My carbines don’t get shot nearly as much now as they used to, and I’m thinking that’s a good thing. I can focus on pistol trigger control and work carbine reloads and manipulations dry at home, save ammo and still become a better shooter.

19

Random thoughts:

Choosing a doctrine
During my short time as a shooter, I’ve trained with an assload of instructors. The result? A mishmash of techniques and not much to show for it.

My approach thus far has been to learn everything and simply use what I want. Unfortunately, constantly learning various techniques means that I can do it all, but nothing at a high level. Everything just becomes a blur, and what tends to happen is I end up doing whatever the last instructor I was exposed to taught.

Sometimes I think I would be better off just choosing a system and training exclusively with that instructor/school.

Choosing a platform
I started out with a Glock 17 for 2 years, then moved on to the 1911 for 3 years, and am now 6 months into the Sig 229.

I feel like my time with the 1911 somewhat retarded my progress as a shooter, because let’s face it, the 1911 will turn just about anyone into a stud. I was able to disregard the fundamentals for a few years, and am now paying the price with the Sig.

Obviously, I can only imagine where I’d be if I had just stuck with the Glock.

Physical fitness
Weight training, or at the very least, regular PT is extremely important. The bigger and stronger you are, the better you can shoot. I would say that routine pushups, situps, pullups, and running improved my shooting more than anything else. I still need to do weight training to improve shooting speed.

Gear
I used to run the high-speed gear, but no more. These days, it’s all about my performance with my carry equipment. And since I don’t carry a rifle in real life, I rarely shoot my ARs and carbine training has become mostly academic for me. My rifle configuration has stayed pretty much the same. Support hand has moved further out, and I changed my light from 4 o’clock to 9. Not very many pieces of flair on my guns. Pistol-wise, I prefer to shoot a stock gun with night sights.

Short-term goals
Improve 229 draw, reload, and split times.
Work with a handheld flashlight more.
Go to the gym regularly.

20

“50% of what you are going to learn here will be proven wrong in next 10 years. The problem is that we don’t know which 50%” - attributed to a dean of a big school addressing new class. Pretty much applies to everything in life…

I actually have had hard time getting into a reputable pistol class this year. Carbine has not been a problem - feels like supply is larger here. Actually, this appears to have been a pattern for a few years. My round count ratio is 4:1 pistol to carbine, but most of pistol shooting done by myself, while almost all carbine shooting is done in classes.