Thoughts on CCW and carrying a BUG

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
21

L/R ankle, L/R pocket, support side IWB? Not even a PTA3 or LCP?

if i were LE i’d be more likely to carry 2 guns off duty even, as you guys probably tend to get on the bad side of some dangerous folks.

Retaliation for duty-related acts is always a possibility, but I’ve often pondered whether the risk of same is overestimated. Especially when you consider that LEOs and citizen CCWers are otherwise subject to all the same, and statistically more common, hazards. (That’s not to dismiss the threat of retaliation, just some perspective.)

With few exceptions, when I look back on various times I was truly glad to have my preps, they were situations that anyone could have faced and had nothing to do with any potential LE status.

22

Like John_Wayne777 said, you don’t need it until you NEED it.

If I get into LE like I plan, I’m carrying a back-up gun. I’ll probably carry one when I get my CWL anyways, but it most likely won’t be anything more than a Ruger LCP or something I can just toss in a pocket holster and go.

The only things I always have in my pockets right now are my cell phone, key ring, wallet, folding knife, and a pair of nitrile gloves.

23

Unless I am wearing shorts I always carry the same thing I do on duty, my full size 1911, an lcp in my left pocket and a 442 on my ankle. I catch a lot of shit for it especially when we take someone to jail (we have to disarm before going in) but I feel good knowing if one fails I have two more and no matter what situation I am in I can reach at least one gun. In a pinch I could also arm a friend or family member and still have a backup.

24

JW hit the nail on the head, as I am discovering is usual, but here are my thoughts and experiences as well.

FWIW, I’m not a LEO, and carry in a purely civilian self-defense format. When my father-in-law asked me, in a tone of curiosity, why I carried two guns I simply replied “in case one doesn’t work.” I find that answer satisfies most folks who aren’t anti-gun to begin with.

I was always of the opinion that J-frames were pretty much only good for screwing into someone’s ear in a ground fight, but that this was something that could very well happen. Then I ran into a good deal on a used, pre-lock 642-1 and took it to a 10-8 BUG class. Ben Lennett really showed me the capability of the little J-frame, especially combined with CT lasergrips. Am I as good with it as I am with my Beretta or 1911? Heck no, but it will suffice in a pinch if the primary gun goes TU. Which brings me to my next point…

In the BUG class, we did a couple of drills that showed the time difference between clearing a malfunction and drawing the BUG. For me, the difference between clearing a nasty malfunction and engaging the target with the primary, versus simply dumping the primary and going for the BUG, was on average about 4 seconds. When you really need something to go bang, that’s a lifetime.

Another point is off-hand accessibility. I generally carry my J-frame where I can draw it left-handed. This lets me access a weapon if my primary hand is occupied (dragging my wife or son out of harm’s way, or fighting off a grab on my primary) or incapacitated. It also lets me quietly and discreetly pre-stage a gun if things start to look squirrelly. All I have to do is put my hands casually in my pockets, no big deal, no threatening gestures. If I need to, I can shoot through my pocket, or draw and engage with five rounds while drawing my primary with my strong hand.

While some have mentioned the ability to arm a secondary person, as far as I’m concerned, if they didn’t bring their own gun, they’re probably not competent to use mine. Exceptions exist, of course, but it’s not something that I consider within the realm of reasonable possibility.

I don’t find the addition of a BUG to be all that onerous for EDC. I already have two cell phones, a Leatherman, a folder, a primary, a spare magazine or two, a wallet, and my keys. The BUG just means that my wallet gets moved to a cargo pocket.

As the old adage goes, “I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.” When you need it, brother, you NEED it.

25

good points… i guess somewhere in the back of my mind i consider going about my day with a 9mm service pistol tucked into my pants to be already overkill. this is probably foolish on my part.

26

I started carrying a BUG immediately after I got off of FTO status and started in patrol in a one man car.
23 years later I can’t think of a time since then that I have had only one gun on me while I was at work.

I almost always have two hanguns on me while off-duty as well. Off duty I normally don’t have a shotgun, carbine, radio, armor, etc.

When I started I was the first officer on my department to carry a BUG, and I caught a huge amount of crap for doing so (and this being back in the revolver days). I am imune from retarded versions of peer pressure so I ignored it and carried on.
(I should note that I was also given crap about my Sure Fire light before those were cool, carrying knives, etc. Whatever)

In my situation I have several reasons for carrying two guns, including all of the reasons already so well covered above.

I am often with my daughters (under 21) or other folks (like, lets say out of state no CCW friends who happen to be SpecOps guys) who are competent to extremely competent to have a gun but legally can not. In an emergency I could see several situations where I would hand off a spare to someone I am with.

I should also note that it is more common than folks think for one to take in-coming rounds in the gun or gun hand, best to have a plan B if this happens.

I’ll end on the comment that I don’t jump out of airplanes wearing only one parachute, and I don’t go on road trips in a car with no spare tire, I’m just strange like that.

27

Glad to see that the “Police” mentality about a BUG is not terribly unique to my department. Although by and large my department is receptive to guns, we do have one that is a liberal-tard.

The mindset that “it can’t happen here or to me” is overwhelming and perhaps more training is in order. But given the economy, we are doing good to be provided ammunition to qualify with let alone actually train with and participate in classes. When I first started (1996), I would venture to guess that at least 40% qualified with a second firearm. In recent years, I would guess that the percentage has dropped to less than 10% and I was the only one to qualify with an “off duty/backup” firearm in my squad this year. I always opted to qualify with a second firearm not so much to actually carry it, but to shoot the free ammunition. I’m one who cannot turn down free shooting.

Many of the views expressed in this thread are clear and convincing and I intend to start carrying a BUG. My current position fortunately does not have me working the road on a full-time basis and when on the road, I’ll be using a BUG once qualified with the sidearm.

28

It happens entirely by accident, I assure you.

It is overkill. It’s overkill on any day that you don’t actually have to pull that 9mm service pistol and shoot someone in the face. Most days you could go armed with a pen-knife and it would be overkill. The snag is that we don’t get a warning about when we’re going to have one of those days where we’re actually going to need to try and kill someone because they insist on the cessation of our life functions.

Now hopefully you’ll never have to draw that 9mm service pistol in anger…and I would strongly suggest some of the excellent training out there that helps you detect the signs of an impending attack and how to extricate yourself from the situation without gunfire…but should the day come where you actually have to draw your weapon to preserve your life or the life of a loved one, I can assure you that in your mind it won’t be enough.

It’s not at all unique. I’ve known officers who have been served a measure of excrement from their co-workers for attending training outside of that mandated by the department in firearms or defensive tactics. A acquaintance of mine was actually nicknamed “Tackleberry” by some of his co-workers who thought he was a loon for all those shooting courses he attended and all the time he spent on the range. Suffice it to say that once some of them were in a situation where bad people were trying to kill them and they were ineffective at stopping the threat, they were pretty damn glad to see ol’ “Tackleberry” show up placing lethally effective fire on the bad guys. Nobody gives him static about training or carrying a backup anymore.

You’re only “crazy” until it’s actually happening, and then in that moment the people who thought you were crazy will, without the slightest sense of irony, look to you to save their ass. Understand that it’s just human nature and don’t let it screw your thinking up.

29

There is a huge difference between civilian CCW and LE CCW and I agree with some of the other posters who sit on the LE side and ride one man all the time on their depts. A BUG is a good idea when its just you. As for those you ride two man, such as myself; on a regular basis, carrying a bug is just another tool that could save your life. I personally dont carry one due to all of the other tactical nonsense I have (308, m4 etc. etc.) A BUG for me would be another thing I would have to be responsible for in a 10 hours shift. And if my partner carried one, thats 4 guns that we would be responsible for along with his tac gear in the trunk.

On the civilian side… if a responsible CCW card carrier feels safer that way I say go at it. Who am I to tell a man to not have extra tools in case the shit goes bad. BBUUTTT, again that is more stuff to be reponsible for when you go to a crowded NBA, NFL, NHL game or your local Target or Wally World(Wal-mart).

Bottom line, I feel it is all what you feel comfortable carrying and willing to take respnsibility for! If people want to be kitted up all the time… thats their business.

duty: sig 226, colt m4, remington 700, remington 870

off-duty: glock 26

30

When I’m working as a Police Officer, which I’ve been doing for thirty years now, I carry a BUG. I do that because I"m actively out looking for bad guys and one can never know what I might encounter. When I’m off duty, I carry a small 9mm. That’s it. No BUG, sometimes an extra mag. Why you ask. Because when I’m off duty, I am no longer looking for bad guys. I carry a weapon ONLY as a means of self preservation. I’m not going to take on a crew of bank robbers or try to capture a serial killer. The carjacker that want’s my Jeep, that’s another story. The guy that walks into a McDonalds with the intent on robbing them as I’m in line, maybe depending on circumstances. I am going to probably retire soon and was thinking about replacing all my pistols with one gun, probably a G19 which holds more rounds than what I carry now. But then I came to my senses and realized that because my retirement needs are far more different than my needs as a Police Officer, I decided not to. Why carry something as big as a G19 when the chances of me becoming involved in something that requires all those rounds is so remote that it’s almost laughable. No thanks, I’ll stick with what’s worked for me so far. A 8+1 9mm and MAYBE an extra mag.
Oh, BTW, this setup has worked for me in the past. At work I’ve needed the BUG a couple of times. Off duty when I’m really just another CCW’r? Never. Of course YMMV.

31

Outstanding. Let us know how we can help.

Re the road, utility of a BUG isn’t confined to the road. You never know when you may need one in the back office or alternative assignment, too.

BTDT. Suddenly, that CVPI war wagon dragging it’s rear bumper on the ground isn’t a target of a mockery, it’s relief on wheels.

32

I’m former military, so I was raised with the mantra “two is one, one is none…”

At work (plain clothes LE), I carry a G23 backed up with a G27.

Off duty, I carry the same on the rare occasions I’m in long pants (living in FL, that’s about 90 days a year). When I’m in shorts, it’s the G23 with a PM9 in my weakside front pocket. When I’m PTing or riding bikes with the kids, it’s just the G23 in a fanny pack.

Regards,

Kevin

33

John Wayne777 and others have posted lots of great reasons to carry a BUG off duty or CCW. I didn’t carry a BUG off duty for years until I got a 342PD scandium J-frame which weighs practically nothing. Now I can carry it either pocket or ankle with a reload and forget it’s there. I also carry a backup lefty benchmade griptillian next to my BUG along with a reload for next to no weight.

To me it’s all about having various options for not only malfunctions, but for various positions you may end up in during a fight, getting hurt/disabled, and whatever else may happen.

On duty I carry 3 pistols and various knives in strategic positions to deal with as wide a range of possible issues as I can. With some careful gear selection I can do this without looking like a walking armory, and in plainclothes!

Dennis.

34

First off, I wish I had a M4 and a 700 in my trunk!

However, I can’t agree with your logic regarding on-duty BUGs. While you may work with a partner, it’s not like you can always be side by side with each other. I usually work with at least 1 but usually 2 people and someone always has to peel off to cover the back or side. You can effectively be alone for seconds or much much longer if multiple suspects present themselves. Also the advantage of having your off side hand on a backup in your pocket while just talking to someone is HUGE.

While I know it’s a PIA being responsible for more and more gear it’s not like a BUG is going to break the responsibility bank after all that you have already.

Your call, of course. Just my own humble opinion.

Dennis.

35

Excellent example.

36

If I were a LEO, I would always carry a BUG. Since I’m not, I find that I rarely carry one. These days my primary is a G19 and BUG is a G26, and I always wear the G19 IWB. Occasionally I need to wear the G26 IWB or ankle for deep concealment, but I’ve only felt the need to carry both just a few times. I’m a big believer in “2 is 1”, but for me personally, stealth is more important than numbers. Not recommending it, but it beats going unarmed.

Stay safe.

37

well put…

38

As a card carrying civilian with no gub’ment endorsements or certs, I carry a BUG.

I carry a Glock 19 IWB, and the majority of the time an LCP support side rear pocket next to a reload.

39

Excellent discussion by very knowledgeable people, classic m4carbine.

The exchange regarding overkill struck me as very interesting. John wrote something very important by acknowledging that yes and as a matter of fact it is overkill. This made me realize the obvious, and that is: most of the time when you have a job to do, you want your technology or strategy to have the potential for overkill. You want to be able to dictate just how much servicing a project, or a target needs. Because the trouble is, in difficult and dynamic situations, we often times cannot asses what will produce underkill, kill, or overkill. Therefore it is better to reasonably overprepare, which in a play on semantics can also be considered merely preparing well, than to under prepare. Carrying a BUG is merely preparing well, in my opinion.

I think the case for why one would want to prepare well by carying a BUG has been made in an un-refutable fashion already by the excellent posters in the thread. The only mitigation to this, like others have already written, perhaps concerns the different mission that a civilian has in perhaps a lower threat environment (like others have already written: E&E, less need for active interdiction, etc).

So then the issue isn’t whether or not it is a good idea to carry a BUG, I think that the answer is generally “yes”. But rather, whether we want to admit it or not to ourselves, the issue in reality is, is it convenient for me to carry that BUG?

The people that accuse “overkill” are people that probably don’t want to inconvenience themselves with carrying a BUG, for a variety of reasons, such as it is a pain in the ass to carry, to sentiments of denial (it won’t happen to me, I won’t need it), etc.

So considering a Convenience/Preparedness spectrum, for me, as a civilian it hasn’t been convenient to carry a BUG, and the threat levels that I’ve been exposed to haven’t compelled me to carry a BUG (for me it would be my 638). Of course with that last statement I’m on thinner ground as the concept of a “safe environment” is ultimately fallacious.

But, I now realize that a G26, worn on the inside of my weak ankle may be a good way to go, and perhaps refute my “it isn’t convenient/it is a pain in my ass” argument. A G26 carried that way would be available to both my strong and my weak hand; it may even be available more readily in certain cituation. It would complement my G19 when I carry that as my primary CCW, or I can even perhaps carry a G26 that way as a primary when my clothing limitations keeps me from carrying my G19
(in such instances I resort to my 638 in my kangaroo holster, not perfect, but practicable and it conceals very well, but it is somewhat slow to deploy, prob. slower than an ankle holster but I’m not sure).

Any current practitioners of ankle carry for a BUG?

40

In my younger years, when I carried a BUG on duty, I carried a G26 in an ankle holster. It worked out well.