Looking for some dialogue here. Last week I posted a question about J-frames and received lots of commentary that I found to be particularly useful. Since then, I purchased a 642-1 this past Monday and love it.
Now, I’m curious to learn the forum’s opinions on carrying a BUG when out and about as John Q. Public. In talking with a few co-workers (LEOs), they mentioned that it seems to be border line paranoia. I am considering moving to carrying a BUG when out of uniform; however, I am also asking myself whether or not one is needed.
As of now, I do not carry a BUG while on duty (in uniform) but that is soon changing, once I qualify with the 642. So, how many of you carry a BUG both LEO and as John Q. Public?
I tried searching the forum for similar topics and failed to find any similar threads. If this is a redundant thread, then please delete. I do not want to cause anymore redundant threads.
A backup is better than nothing/knives/fists…
A primary pistol is better…
A primary pistol with reload is a little better…
A primary pistol with a backup is getting better…
A primary pistol with a reload and backup is even better…
A primary pistol, reload and a backup with reload is best.
Your assessment of your operating environment and perceived need of armaments will drive your selection/placement on the hierarchy.
For me, a Glock 19 with a 19rd reload and a 442 work quite well. It’s awfully easy to drop a J-frame in a pocket and not break a sweat.
Prior to LE work
Glock 22/23 as a primary and a smith 340 as a back up.
Begining LE work Glock 22 as primary duty 22 / 23 off duty depending on day / dress. 340 as back up
Current LE work Glock 21 Primary 21/19 off duty depending and guess what… 340 BUG 85-90% of the time off duty and all the time on duty. front left pocket in a desanties holster.
The reason has to be your own. there has been times that my girl and i have been together. I needed Gas or slurpees or whatever reason… I didnt like the area id leave her my 340 and lock the doors. Its better than nothing.
i also like the idea having my hand in my pocket on a loaded firearm when pumping gas/ walking and not look like ive got a gun. thats just me
I understand carrying a BUG to my primary pistol is tactically sound in case of malfunction or otherwise loss of primary. But I already carry so much crap around everyday carrying another gun is just not practicle for me.
I have a full size 1911. Two reloads. Surefire L4. Folding blade. Sometimes a box cutter. Wallet. Cell phone. Keys. I cant comfortably add another item.
I feel that the subset of rare circumstances that would have me needing a BUG are so remote that they do not compel me to surrender anymore of my personal comfort.
I also am not sold on guns that would be so small that I could carry them comfortably with all my other EDC items. How long will it take me to access that tiny 380 tucked away in the middle of a fight for my life where I have already either run dry on 3 mags or had a stoppage that a tap-rack wouldnt fix? In that circumstance will this little hard to shoot low cap small calliber pistol really do me any good?
I have to weight the cost vs. benifit. And for me I dont see it as practicle.
YMMV
ETA: I am scheduled to take Handgun II with Randy Cain at the end of August and we are to go over the use and deployment of a BUG. Once I get some training with that set up, as I will try it out for that section of class, I will have more information to base a solid opinion on.
I carry a BUG as much as possible. My primary is a Glock 19, IWB with a 26 around my ankle. Some times the 26 gets to go out by itself depending on what I am wearing. With dress clothes it goes in a tuckable IWB apendix carry. I try to have two as much as I can along with a E2D. Since I can run 19 mags in the 26 I dont bother with a spare mag.
That’s because they are idiots. Guns break. Guns malfunction. Guns run out of ammunition. In gunfights people get hit in the arms/hands, sometimes in such a way that they can no longer use that arm/hand. If said arm/hand was the hand you were depending on to be able to draw a pistol to defend yourself…well…you’re just crap out of luck, right? Now if by some chance you realized ahead of time that gunfights don’t always go according to script and you carried a BUG on your weak side and suddenly found yourself facing a threat with your strong arm out of commission, it would be awful nice to be able to draw a 642 and shoot at the bad guy rather than just wait for him to finish you off.
It’s also helpful when you’re in a ground fight with some dude who has you pinned in such a way that you can’t get to that gun on your strong side. I know an officer, for instance, who successfully defended against a weapon grab attempt from a much larger and stronger man by pulling a S&W revolver from his weak side, putting the muzzle in contact with the bad guy’s head, and pulling the trigger.
Before the police send the SWAT team to go after some violent felon with overwhelming force, he generally has some sort of violent interaction with somebody who doesn’t have level IV body armor, a machine gun, and six or seven dudes on his six. Given that type of bad guy sometimes succeeds in killing dudes who actually roll with all of that stuff, it seems rather silly to argue that a lone individual trying to defend against the attack of that caliber of bad guy doesn’t really “need” a plan B.
As for John Q. Public, John Q. goes about his daily life without the benefit of body armor or backup. John Q. probably isn’t rolling with a shotgun or a carbine in his trunk. If the cops in his area are really on the ball and traffic permits they can get there about 2 minutes after the 911 call goes out…which might as well be an eternity if John Q. is facing some dude who wants to kill him.
So no, carrying a BUG isn’t borderline paranoia any more than carrying a spare magazine or a flashlight or first aid supplies is paranoia. That’s not to say everyone has to pack one all the time, but if they can find a BUG option that they can carry without any real addition to their burden (like an airweight or lighter S&W revolver) then why not?
Think about it: If it gets to the point where you are pulling a handgun to try and end the life of another human being before he can end yours…well…you’re having a pretty bad day. Do not expect that suddenly things will start going your way once you clear leather.
I am considering moving to carrying a BUG when out of uniform; however, I am also asking myself whether or not one is needed.
“Needed” is a funny word. I carry every day of my life…but so far on the overwhelming majority of those days I’ve never actually “needed” my pistol. Because shooting people is not really a primary focus of my vocation or lifestyle, generally my pistols are just extra weight. The same would apply to a BUG…you don’t need one until you need one…but then you REALLY NEED IT.
Now that’s not to say everyone absolutely must pack a BUG. I’m just saying that life sometimes sucks, that it sucks pretty hard when someone is trying to kill you, and that in some situations a BUG can help life suck a little bit less and last a bit longer. If someone examines their particular situation and decides the BUG isn’t really for them, so be it. All of us have different situations and considerations that determines “need” in our mind. I have no beef with that.
When someone insists, however, that the carry of a BUG is a physical manifestation of some sort of diseased mindset like paranoia or the rambo syndrome, it makes me want to split their skull with a sledgehammer. I can point to a number of situations where BUGs have actually been used to great effect, but generally in response I get “what are the odds?” or “but I’m not a cop” speeches which frankly are about as stupid as it gets because:
Absent a crystal ball you will NEVER know the odds ahead of time
The notion that somehow police deal with bad guys that are super extra bad is pretty stupid since those idiots generally commit violent crimes against ordinary joes before the local constabulary takes note of their misdeeds.
As of now, I do not carry a BUG while on duty (in uniform) but that is soon changing, once I qualify with the 642.
Good idea on or off duty. Probably ought to be a requirement on duty.
So, how many of you carry a BUG both LEO and as John Q. Public?
As John Q, I carry one almost all the time. Long, long ago I read an article in a gun magazine written by a dude with a funny mustache that laid out some pretty good reasons for carrying a backup and I thought he made a lot of sense. Later on when attending a handgun course I found that the Beretta on my hip was a paperweight due to a busted firing pin. I had fired the weapon just TWO DAYS before and it worked fine, but when I stepped up to the line to use the weapon it went click instead of bang. After that, I was convinced that the dude with the funny mustache was a damn genius and I’ve carried a BUG ever since.
I tried searching the forum for similar topics and failed to find any similar threads. If this is a redundant thread, then please delete. I do not want to cause anymore redundant threads.
No worries there, bro. It’s a good topic.
Ditto. There are times when it’s nice to have the drop on somebody who thinks they have the drop on you.
JW, why is it that you always have a way of making sense? I wish you had been a party of our conversation yesterday. I guess that I’m not as quick witted as some. I just rolled my eyes and said, whatever. Out of 21-officers on my department (including reserves) only two carries a BUG about half the time. I used to carry a G26 on my ankle when I first started but since stopped carrying a BUG ten or more years ago. But with recent events and current state of economy, it’s getting down right “nuts” out there.
I carry a BUG every day. Guns are mechanical devices and like everything else they can go “tits up” when you least expect it. A BUG only makes sense to me…maybe not to you, but it does to me.
Daily Carry:
S&W M&P9 full size
BUG:
S&W 360PD in .357 mag in pocket holster
OR
Magnum Research Micro Eagle in .380
In my area there is a small municipality that has 3 officers. One is the police chief. He was a Trooper for a while until some hammerhead smashed into him at high speed. After recovering he became the COP for this small town. One day he’s out doing his thing when he sees a suspicious vehicle with three dudes in it that runs a stop sign. He pulls them over. He is approaching the vehicle when he gets an urgent ONA call over the radio. He waives them on and goes to help the radio call for ONA.
A few days later he gets a call from a large metro police department detective who has two of those guys that were in the car in custody. Turns out they were hardcore violent felons running from warrants on murder. When caught they mentioned some hick cop in Virginia who got lucky because he “changed his mind” about stopping them. They fully intended to kill him. Their guns were loaded and ready and they had a plan of action in case they were pulled over. They would start with the through-the-window shots to get him on the ground, and then the plan was to put 3 or 4 in his head just to make sure.
The most dangerous event prior to that little episode in the previous six months was a cow that got loose and was wandering in the road.
You never know what’s out there or what you are going to have to do to beat it. Having options is good. My assumption is that if I’m in a situation where I have to draw a handgun and pull the trigger, it will only end when the bad guy is dead. I don’t factor in escape or the bad guy losing his nerve to fight. I assume that he’s going to push it to the absolute limit and that it will only be over when his life functions have ceased as a result of gunfire. Now obviously if I’m presented with a situation where escape is a realistic possibility or the bad guy gives up before then, goody goody…but I don’t want to depend on that to happen. A BUG puts me closer to that goal.
I carry a 642-2 in a weakside pocket holster as a backup to my strongside IWB Glock 34. I also carry a spare mag for the G34, flashlight, cell phone, pressure bandage, tourniquet, folding knife, etc.
I advocate carrying a backup gun for all the reasons that JohnWayne777 stated so well earlier in this thread.
To further muddy the waters I think that there is a difference between civy CCW and LEO off duty CCW. I fall into the former category(civy) and I don’t pretend to “know” anything about being an off duty LEO but I do perceive a different set of mission requirements.
BLUF: I don’t think there is ever a circumstance where it would be bad to carry a BUG; however, I also think that necessary and practical are also two very subjective criteria that need to be addressed in this context.
Here is why I, as a civy CCW’er, don’t usually carry a BUG:
[ul]
[li]My Plan A: E&E, My plan B: “stand and deliver” so that I can E&E, My plan C: employ my Emerson HD7 or HAK as a last resort…hopefully survive to E&E
[/li][li]Low threat lifestyle and living area
[/li][li]No requirement to “close with”, engage or capture enemies/criminals
[/li][li]Reliable primary (G26, G19 or J-Frame 642)
[/li][/ul]
(I’m not LEO so take this for what it’s worth…very little) I would carry a BUG if I was on or off duty because:
[ul]
[li]Possibility of making enemies during routine duties
[/li][li]May feel compelled to “help” a fellow LEO in need and thus may be required to move towards a threat
[/li][li]Can help arm a fellow LEO who’s primary may have malfunctioned or run dry
[/li][li]Greater chance of loosing primary because they may be required to go “hands on” with criminal
[/li][/ul]
I would carry a BUG as a civy CCW if one or more of the following conditions were present:
[ul]
[li]Carrying a less than 100% or low capacity primary (example: if I was carrying my personal 1911, which I don’t, I would definitely carry my 642 also)
[/li][li]Going to a higher crime rate area of town (volunteer work, dinner, etc.)
[/li][li]Possible situation where I may want/need to arm my fiancee
[/li][li]At the range, because I’m practicing with my primary USPSA/IDPA gun and often run it dry during drills, I like to keep a pistol in my pocket just to make sure I have a pistol ready if something unexpected occurs.
[/li][li]Anytime I wear armor, I hardly ever wear armor now a days as a civilian but hypothetically if I was entering a situation where I felt armor was warranted I would definitely want a BUG as well.
[/li][/ul]
I don’t think that having a BUG + primary CCW is excessive or indicative of too much paranoia, on the contrary I think it is always “better” to have a BUG. This is especially true if you are a LEO, but it is not always necessary as it may not always be practical (dress / lifestyle) and deciding if you “need one” should be mission and environment driven. When I was in the military I always carried a secondary, but as a civilian I already carry enough crap in my pockets and on my person that I do not feel that I need a BUG for my day to day activities. It is true that most of the time you cannot pick the time or place when the fight comes to you, but I feel confident that my normal CCW pistol G26 with 10+1 and 17rd reload is enough to neutralize or break contact from the “most likely enemy course of action”. If I lived somewhere else, was carrying something else or was doing something else that may change.
I have always been a firm believer in what my father taught me. Your BUG should typically mirror your Primary when possible. All that aside a nice J frame makes for a perfect BUG in your trousers.
Having a BUG or two increases your options. You may be able to access a BUG but not a primary. You may have a need to arm others. Your primary may be lost, disabled, or otherwise unavailable to you.
With dedication, carrying two is no more inconvenient than carrying one. Carrying three is little more inconvenient than carrying two.
While I think there are some differences, the off-duty LEO and CCW are much more alike than different, as are the expectations of them. That is why citizens should be extended every right and privilege in the use, possession, ownership, and carriage of arms that LEOs have.
I am an LEO, but I regard myself as a citizen first.
JW_777 pounced on the facts, as usual. You need to cut and paste a lot of these into a sticky, sir.
I think that Rocket20_Ginsu and Skintop911 made an excellent point that is very often overlooked.
Having a BUG means you can arm another lawful person. I always thought that rule number 1 was “Have a gun.” I think rule number 2 is “Bring friends with guns.”
(Okay, rule 3 is make sure the guns are belt-fed, and rule 4 involves JDAM deliveries…)
So if I carry a primary (usually a G-19) it’s very easy to drop a 642 with Laser Grips in the left front pocket.
On Sundays, I carry two primaries to church. I’m an armed usher, and my position is near the door to the nursery. I can walk two steps, and hand a spare pistol to a retired cop in the choir loft. They then have two piles of warm brass to climb over, before they get to the kids.
You ain’t paranoid, my friend.
Gtmtnbiker98 - Thank you for your service to our community, and stay safe.
I beat myself up about this topic on a daily basis. I read a magazine article about an officer down south who was attacked by a prisoner in his vehicle while it was moving. There was a fight for his primary and the prisoner got the upper hand. The officer drew his BUG and it was dropped to the floor on the opposite side of the vehicle. The officer then drew his BUBUG and finished off the bad guy with a round to the head only after being shot through the hand with his primary. My department has 10 officers. I am the only one that carries a BUG. When I am suiting up and they see my BUG in my vest holster, guys roll their eyes at me. The way I carry it will not be effective if I cannot reach my primary in a pinch. It takes too long to access my BUG. As a civi, or off duty, I never carry a BUG. I do think about it sometimes but never do. My thought process as a man in regular clothes with a gun in his hand is a threat to the bad guy and a threat to the responding uniforms too, until identified (hopefully before shot). Most police are not “gun guys” and the few that are, are looked at funny. Not that I care but this is a known issue. I carry a G23 anytime I am not at work and my duty BUG (Kahr K40) is in my vehicle when off duty. That is the closest I get to having a BUG off duty. I read this thread very carefully and all have very good points for carrying a BUG all the time. I personally don’t see the need to carry a BUG off duty because of the extra weight and my personal views of my position as an armed citizen.
