I realize it’s a movie from like 10 years ago, but in Blackhawk Down, the “snipers” were using red dots as optics. We all know that a red dot allows you to more quickly and perhaps easily put rounds into a target. However, these “snipers” had no magnification, didn’t dial dope, or even have wind or elevation hold capability.
All the new hotness seems to be the variable power optics on “recce” type rifles with either BDC or Mil-based reticles.
It seems to me that for an AR, it’s still tough to beat a red dot sight for the useful range of the rifle.
Maybe it’s just me, but unless you’re a LEO or Mil sniper, what’s the point for having a magnified optic on your AR? Long distance paper punching?
I mean, I guess some guys have fun playing weekend sniper dialing dope and such, and that has it’s place, but then why spend all the money for mil-grade equipment? The benchrest guys do it more accurately with super-fine-dot-reticled, 45X Leupolds. Why try to do it with a 10X or 15X Mil-based reticle and “play” sniper.
I can’t think of a single CONUS personal shooting situation that would require a “sniper” type weapon.
So what gives, what am I missing? Why do I have a Nightforce on my AR again?
Well, I know this is a military application so its not exactly the answer you want, but when we were issued ACOGs in the Marine Corps they told us it was to get a better view of possible IED’s.
And you’re asking a hard question anyway.
I can’t think of a single CONUS personal shooting situation that would require a “sniper” type weapon.
Which shooting situations occur that a regular schmo (who cant carry an ar15 everyday) would need his AR15?
These things we do are for hobby. I know you’re not criticizing and I’m not criticizing in return. But hopefully, I’ll never use my ar15 in CONUS. Seriously. If I need to…the country is in a bad place. So having an ar15 is just like having a NIghtforce on it.
Whats the point? (self defense not withstanding of course)
Well, whats the point of golf?
Why titanium drivers instead of cheap walmart kind? You’re never going to be a pro…why bother? You’re just playing at being a pro anyway.
Because its fun and we can. That’s why
Edit:
Oh and some people hunt for food. I hope to do that this year for the first time
I’ve wondered the same thing. Outside of hunting or paper punching, I can’t think of many civilian “self defense” scenarios that would require a long range scope. There are a couple scenarios where it could be helpful to have magnificaion (getting caught in a “Texas tower shooting” type situation), but a good red dot should be sufficient for civilian AR use I would think.
In my opinion, the ideal mix between a red dot and a scope is having a red dot with a flip-to-side magnifier. This allows you to use your red dot like normal, but have the option of quick magnification if a longer precision shot is necessary.
See, I ran that setup too, but I think you have to be careful when describing the capabilities of the magnifier. “Longer Range” isn’t really a capability of the magnifier. “Greater Precision” is. The .223/556 round is pretty flat out to 250, but then it starts dropping quite fast. Also, I know you can walk yourself into a target with a holdover using the RDS/magnifier combo, but I think first round hits are paramount in any practical shooting scenario.
Thanks for taking the time to write this. This is really “the answer.” I just wonder sometimes how much we (me included) “need” the Nightforce, S&B, etc for our paper punching safe queens.
The importance of owning a precision AR is hitting where you’re aiming on the target instead of just hitting the target. You don’t necessarily have to be very far away to take advantage of this capability, but might not feel comfortable taking the same shot with a regular red dot sight at whatever distance. Additionally, with magnification you will likely be able to better see your target, the surrounding area, and therefore be able to better assess a situation before engaging a threat.
As far as cookie cutter fantasy situations to throw out for discussion, I have none.
(the golf reference…I actually thought of that this morning hearing some DJ’s talking sports talk about…something I don’t care about. But people drone on and on about at work and they think I’m the oddball for not giving a shit about people I have nothing to do with)
I finished my AR308 build sans the optic and got it back from having the barrel dimpled the same day I got a 20% furlough @ work. I have been going over my needs/wants realistically with the bank statements and, its been almost a year, I think, and don’t have an optic for it yet.
I do have a Dylan 550 coming though and am trading a 45 for a 9mm so that I can continue to train affordably.
Personally, I feel ammo for guns I have at their full functional capacity is more important than taking on the entirely new field of precision work just for fun.
Don’t get me wrong. I still WANT a Razor HD, but its not high on the list because realistically I know I’m not going to use it other than to take classes, and eventually compete. While those would be fun, they’re not NEEDS.
Hobbies like Golf, fishing, running, camping, etc. are strictly that, hobbies (although the last two also get appropriated by the “prepper” community as being more than they are, unfortunately too much camping and not enough running…). Shooting on the other hand attracts people for a whole host of reasons, from professional need, to simple mindless fun, to collectors, to defense-minded people. So reasons vary, and often some or all of those are wrapped into one person.
What gets confusing is when they seem to get confused themselves…
I need a 1.x-Y optic
what situation do you envision where this may help you or be needed given your role?
oh man, when the zombies attack I’d much rather take them out at distance
how likely do you think that will be to happen?
well, I live on a large suburban lot and have like a 200’ driveway, and that extra magnification has really helped me ID targets at the mailbox.
how often do you find the need to ID targets at the mailbox, and have you tried this new hotness indoors where you’re more likely to need to engage a threat?
why does everything have to be about some tactical need? why can’t I just have fun with it? I happen to like shooting at distance and who are you to tell me how to spend my money?
Had (1) simply said from the get-go what he says at the end, the whole exchange could have been avoided and (2) might even have had a good suggestion for an optic for him to use. Or if he simply said he was going to shoot 3-gun and his local club had a lot of targets out to 200 yards and beyond. But instead he leads with “need” and then when confronted with it he comes full circle to accuse (2) of being the needy one.
Apparently shooting at distance is fun. I personally find it ungodly boring but I’m also the guy that has the radio and the TV on and is typing on the internet and talking on the phone, so maybe I just don’t have the patience/focus for it. It does seem to be the newest/latest trend and for that I have no explanation, but I can tell you that prior to the sunset of the ban the “SPR” made a huge jump in popularity over on barfcom probably mostly due to the fact that it didn’t require any of the banned items (flash hider, bayonet lug, threaded barrel, collapsible stock). Stick around the tactical shooting world long enough and you’ll see that all this shit just goes in cycles.
I can’t speak for all, but for me it’s mostly because I can and I like to shoot stuff as far away as possible and when I’m on a short range I like to try to shoot teeny groups (as teeny as my ineptitude allows). For me it’s relaxing. I do have 2 guns one with a RDS and another with a magnified optic and offset red dot. I’d like to replace this with a 1.x-Y scope eventually when funds clear up. Why? Again cause I can.
Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with setting up a purpose built gun, so long as you understand the limitations of it. I also like the idea of a 1.x-Y scope or an offset RDS with another magnified optic because they allow for a wider application range. Simply put, its better to have the ability to reach out to 500m, and not need it than to need to reach out and not have it. This assumes that your set up hasn’t placed you into the need to shoot inside a room and not have it category.
The other thing that I have noted is that practicing the skills needed to engage at longer ranges rarely hurts short range shooting ability, but the inverse is not always true.
Plus my eyes suck, so I’m in definite need for some magnification for a clear target ID.
As a LEO I have come across one incident I can remember where a magnified optic on an AR would have been useful. A guy woke up one night hearing a scream outside. He looked out his bedroom window and saw his teenage/20 something daughter being attacked by her boyfriend in the street. He opened the window and yelled for him to stop and the guy started to choke her with both hands.
The guy grabs his .357 and jumps out the second floor window onto the hood of his truck. He runs up to the attacker as the daughter is passing out. He then pistol whips the attacker who is still strangling the unconscious girl. After the pistol whip he shoots the attacker in the torso which finally makes him stop.
Many will say that an AR with irons would work in that situation but I wouldnt mind the extra precision of a RECCE with a 1-5x on it.
We also don’t “NEED” sport bikes or sports cars capable of speeds in excess of the highest posted limit. Most of us don’t “NEED” a timepiece capable of great accuracy, shock resistance, and water resistance down to multiple atmospheres. I don’t “NEED” a custom 1911, a fine Bourbon, Scotch, or cigar. But I can still appreciate, use, and enjoy them…
I also take assurance in knowing that however remote the possibility may be, that if called upon for use, the equipment I have is capable and I am proficient enough, to effectively use them for their intended purpose and therefore attempt to equip my weapons in such a way as to minimize (as much as possible) mechanical failure or equipment limitation as much as possible.
If someone can tell me what an ‘every day’ shooting situation is, I’d be better able to answer the question. Short answer is in the event of an active shooter situation, you have no idea what you’re going to need. I’ll take some magnification over straight irons or a CCO.
First thing, importance is relative. Really depends on the situation and the individual. So the question is wide open imho. Keep in mind it’s easy to justify our wants by calling then needs.
In civilian life, hunting seems to be the only thing that comes to mind that will be easily/openly accepted.
True, it would be hard to claim self defense if you can see trouble coming from ~200+ yards… Although you would technically be well prepared for it… :laugh:
Personally i enjoy the marksmanship side of it; although, the skill set required to do so with a rifle might not be much use outside of battle/hunting.
In conclusion i guess it’s not a necessity and I am okay with it. Plan to add a few more of those useless things to my collection in the near future and happily accepting donations. :jester:
I agree with his response as well. It’s nothing more than a hobby for the vast majority of us. There is more than a bit of fantasy with many and that’s okay. Ultimately, it’s all about (or should be) about the defense of liberty - though I believe the battle lies OUTSIDE of our “peculiar hobby”.
Counterpoint would be that if you’re not proficient with your CCW, or are in poor physical health, excluding the “fun” aspect, spending time at the 600 yard range is probably not a good use of your time and financial resources. If that’s all guns are to someone, “fun”, then that’s a different thing altogether. Preparing for a 0.01% probability event to the exclusion of a 1% (mugging or other interpersonal violent crime) or 50% (health-related issues) probability event just doesn’t make any sense. If it’s “fun” say “it’s fun” and be done with it.
I am seriously jealous of the guys that are at a proficiency level they find acceptable, in good physical health, and have the financial means to not only collect a bunch of guns but get to the range and enjoy them in some way*. Unfortunately I don’t have the time or the funds to do those things, so for me I have to prioritize my range time and shooting budget, and there is no money or time for distance shooting for me. Between a real job, working out, and spending one night a week and two Saturdays a month working on pistol skills I just don’t have any time left over for “fun” with guns.
And then, of course, there’s the whole “handguns are tactical, rifles are strategic” that some folks seem to forget. You may not want one, but it’s a good thing that there are people out there who DO and are good with them. It’s good for everyone.
