the current state of christianity

General General Discussion
1

as with many divisive, politicized, non-political topics, seems there’s quite a bit of debate on the current state of christianity in this country, and in the world.

which camp are you in? in the middle? where and why?

Camp A may believe all or some of these themes- christianity has been slowly encroaching on American politics and is increasingly usurping the minds of Americans… if we’re not careful, it will completely take over. we’re at risk of becoming a theocracy, if this religious encroachment isn’t resisted, even fought. religious fascism is the biggest danger to national security we have, responsible for our current “neo-crusade” and foreign policies which have eroded our global respect. the first amendment was added to the bill of rights to protect us from christianity. etc.

These people seem to think that America started as a very secular society, and has gradually been becoming more and more religious.

Camp Z may believe all or some of these themes- christianity is in it’s last death throws. we’ve been killing it off since the so-called “enlightenment,” and by now, the 21st century, only the last almost unrecognizable tendrils remain in American society. if we can’t turn the tide, christianity’s ultimate fate may include an all-out BAN on christianity. America will plummet further into a pit of a-morality, utilitarianism, secular-humanism, where nothing is sacred, and any dark deed that can be loosely justified is A-OK. the first amendment was added to the bill of rights to protect christianity. etc.

these people seem to think that America started as a very Christian society, and has gradually been becoming more and more secular.

i’ve learned, over the years, that perceptions of extremes are generally way off base. rarely is anything as “bad” as it’s made out to be. people pushing agendas, whatever they are, will always tend to make problems out to be worse than they are, even if they don’t realize it. therefor, i really don’t think either of these are accurate… but surely there must be some truth to both, or neither would have a strong argument.

where’s reality?

2

All I know is that the “health” of the church is counter-proportionate to it’s mass acceptance. Persecuted church tends to weed out those who are in it only for convenience, gain or tradition without holding any of the beliefs of their own.

I’m in a Camp N, kind of in the middle. I do believe that USA has it’s very roots in Christian/Judaic value/moral system, and I do believe that it largely responsible for the greatness of our society and it’s achievements. On the other hand, US was established to be free from a state-controlled church.

3

I beileve this country was founded deeply on the foundation of religion. Not neccessarily Christianity but I think its the biggest influence. You can see it everywhere, its on our money in our national anthem, etc…

But I do believe the first ammendmant was against “state sponsored” churches and not against religion in government. If it was truely against any religion in governemnt I dont think the word GOD would be all over the place.

That being said I do believe that many of our “leaders” put to much of their own personal beliefs into our government. My biggest example is gay marriage. Marriage is a religious institution and the government is regulating who can and cant be married. I think thats bullshit.

4

Whatever you think about gay marriage, marriage is not a religious institution. It is a societal and legal institution.

5

I’m in my own camp too.

However, this country did begin under Judeo-Christian principles and the 1st Amendment was designed to protect religion from government, not government from religion.

The first instance of “separation of church and state” came in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802 in which he was replying to their concern about the 1st Amendment. You see, the Baptists were opposed to the 1st Amendment because if there’s an amendment regarding religion, then the nation recognizes the government’s ability to regulate said religion. Jefferson replied that there was “a wall of separation between church and state.” Unfortunately, SCOTUS quickly and disingenuously misinterpreted Jefferson’s meaning.

The 1st Amendment was never designed to keep the Nativity off of public squares. However, movements in the 20th Century saw to it to secularize our society, in part by misstating, misquoting, twisting, or outright lying about the writings and speeches of the founding fathers. Over time, these secular movements successfully labeled them deists, agnostics or atheists- which is completely false. The vast majority of them were devout Christians, and many were ordained preachers of the Word.

By the way, the only thing that’s going to kill Christianity is Christians. But something tells me the Big Man will come back before then.

6

Betcha five bucks.

7

and this line of thinking is exactly what’s had me thinking about this topic recently, and the ultimate reason for questioning of my own position.

8

Understood.

But I’d like to clarify my statement. Christians might kill Christianity for someone else, but neither they, nor anyone else, spiritual or human, can kill Christianity. God is the Word and the Word is God. The Word will always exist, and the Word never comes back void.

9

I agree with you there. Im a Christian but I dont like going to church. I see most of the churches falling into two categories.

  1. Traditional Catholic type church. They read the book and tell you that is Gods will and you have to follow it. No mentioning that:

    A. the book has been translated how many times?
    B. Catholic church is widely believed to have changed verses and taking parts out of the bible.
    C. The book was written a LONG time ago and might not be accurate to how the Lord works today.

  2. Mega chuches. These churches have thousands of members and while I like many of their views on the bible, ie not word for word, many seem to be more interested in the business side than actual worship.

10

Marriage absolutely is a religious institution. It is also societal, but think about the rules that are dictated by religion about marriage. Just using one simple example the number of wives that are allowed. Now because of our religious and cultural beliefs we only allow one in this nation, other nations allow multiple.This rule and others were set by religion first not government. Adding to the point that kry226 was making, it was meant as freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Just FYI there was a form of state sponsored religion for many years in this country, it is just that the federal gov did not do it, but some of the individual states did. This country was very much founded on Christianity. It was not limited to that though.

11

Marriage is a societal and legal institution. Religions have adopted it – I do not deny that it has religious connections or overtones. But marriage exists in societies that have no religion and non religious people also get married.

Marriage came about as societies way to provide stability so that children could be raised.

It is also societal, but think about the rules that are dictated by religion about marriage. Just using one simple example the number of wives that are allowed. Now because of our religious and cultural beliefs we only allow one in this nation, other nations allow multiple.This rule and others were set by religion first not government. Adding to the point that kry226 was making, it was meant as freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Just FYI there was a form of state sponsored religion for many years in this country, it is just that the federal gov did not do it, but some of the individual states did. This country was very much founded on Christianity. It was not limited to that though.

I am not arguing that the country was not founded on judeo/christian values etc. I agree. I was only disagreeing with the idea that marriage (conceptually and historically) is a religious institution. It is not. It has been adopted and is important in religion and religion shapes many people’s implementations. No argument there.

12

Agree.

C4

13

Christians have been under far more severe persecution through the ages than they currently are in the U.S. On the flip side, those who would seek to use the legislative branch as a religious pulpit are kept in check quite sufficiently.

The real danger is the lack of morals and values on display in all aspects of American life. Far too many are emboldened to do whatever they wish, while far too few are willing to speak out against them.

While the country is in a financial recession, it’s much worse than that. We’re in a spiritual depression. Too much bad and not enough good will cause people to come unhinged. :frowning:

14

The Catholic “lite” group. Meaning I am Episcopalian. Now the way I see things are the downward spiral of morality and human kindness is increasing ever faster. Currently the evil of the world is outpacing the good. Not to be a doom sayer but Sodom and Gomorrah ring a bell in my thought process. But hey what do I know. Our parish for the most part is highly educated professionals that are only there for the next cocktail party.

15

…probably because many Christians lean on their own denomination & get ‘their religion’ involved simply to pick the fly shit out of the pepper over petty topics.

we are our own worst enemy.


either that or it's just the damn mayans and 2012 is getting closer:D
16

I was a Catholic, than turned Baptist, been an agnostic for a real long time. Not atheist, agnostic. I don’t believe you can be a true atheist since it would require you to disprove something that you can neither prove nor disprove.

On the stat of Christianity in this country, well it’s not Christianity. It’s some weird ass pop culture run crazy with a religion. What you see being peddled as the Christian faith has nearly zero resemblance of the true doctrine. But instead has been distorted in to this Christian collation bs. Most Christians can tell you all about the Palins, but can’t recite even the 10 commandments. Or they’ll invoke Jesus when calling for war against another person (For these people, they need to go back and read Matthew’s 5-7).

What’s Christianity really? It’s a dismembered religion, it’s pretty much non existent in this country, whether somebody calls themselves a Christian or not. A true Christian is suppose to be a changed person, not somebody who simply needs God when he or she has sinned. A true Christian doesn’t blatantly commit sin only to ask for forgiveness at a later time. A true Christian is a truly change person. This isn’t the case and never has been, the bible says when saved you’re born again with out the desire to sin, if you’re not you truly haven’t been saved.

Rant over.

17

This is much more accurate than I would prefer

18

I started off as Catholic. Not the go to church once in a while Catholic but the Alter Boy, Youth pastor, almost became a priest type. The more I studied the more I questioned.

The more I questioned the more I saw the problems with religion. So I left the church and considered myself spiritual but not religious. I considered myself a Deist. Eventually I realized that even that was wrong and became Agnostic. Finally I was able to admit to myself and others that I am an Atheist.

If you walk up to someone and tell them you are a Christian they shrug. Walk up and tell them you are an Atheist and you are treated like you have the plague.

Christianity is in no danger in this country. It has more say in how the government is run than it ever has. I saw Money mentioned and the Pledge of allegiance. Neither of these had references to God originally. It was added later. In the case of the pledge in the 50s.

I think BKB and I agree on something though. The more extreme elements always think it is worse than it is. Christians think they are persecuted today by Atheist and liberals. Atheists think they are persecuted by conservatives and Christians.

Both are right and neither are right.

As an aside, Marriage is a social institution and has been for most of time. Religion adopted it, and I see no problem with this. But that doesn’t mean that religion started it.

I hesitate to say this because I don’t want to stir up trouble but I feel it is an important.

I dislike religion. I feel it is unneeded in today’s society and causes more problems than it solves. There was a time when mankind needed it as a way to explain the unexplained but this isn’t that time any longer.

That being said I also believe that every one of you gentlemen has the right to worship however you wish. Abrahamic religions like Islam and Christianity, Or more spiritual ones like Buddhism, it doesn’t matter.

I truly believe the problem comes when either side thinks there is no room for the other. And that is where these arguments start. Why should I, as an Atheist have to live under Christian rule? Why should a Christi9an have to live under Muslim rule? None of us should. This is why I feel it is so important to keep Government separate from Religion.

19

Precisely. In the eyes of our government, marriage is a legal institution only. What you do behind the closed doors of your church is your own business.

The government doesn’t regulate religion any more than I can get my minister to sign a BATF Form 4.

20

I’d throw in my two cents but kwelz pretty much covered all the bases.