The Combat Mindset: Do You Have it?

General General Discussion
1

I can’t remember the trainer’s name. Years ago I took a basic handgun class oriented around self-defense and mastering the basics.

Before even beginning the class, the trainer took each person aside individually, and asked, “In the event of a life-threatening encounter, do you think you could actually pull the trigger to harm another human being?”

If the interviewee hesitated in answering for even a moment, the trainer told the person, “I don’t think you’re ready to use a deadly force in an encounter. I’m refunding your money and not allowing you to take this class.”

Of course, I answered that I was ready, and so got to take the class. I found out later from a friend of mine that disappeared from the class that he had been “disqualified” during the interview for “not having a combat mindset.”

What’s your opinion of this? Agree or disagree that if you’re not ready to pull the trigger on another person then you are probably better off not carrying a weapon?

My dad’s opinion, and that of other “old timers” I encountered when I was young, was that if you’re not ready to fire the minute your iron clears leather, then you have no business carrying or even owning a defensive firearm.

My father drilled into me at a young age: “Never show your weapon unless you intend to draw. Never draw your weapon unless you intend to fire. Never fire unless you intend to kill.” The theory being that if you don’t have the mental state to destroy a perp without hesitation, then that person may very well have a momentary advantage where, in the heat of the moment, they can take your weapon away from you and use it against you.

It’s sort of anecdotal that in the belief of some writers the best gunfighters in the Old West were not necessarily the fastest, but were the ones most willing to actually pull the trigger without hesitation.

I am of the opinion that teaching gunfighting skills is only part of the equation: It is equally important to teach a person who might potentially use a gun for self-defense to have the proper willingness to use those skills in a defensive encounter.

Though we all know that you should only use deadly force in a situation where deadly force is about to be used against you, it’s important to always remember: Timidity and hesitation get you killed.

What’s your opinion? Are mechanical skills enough? Or do you agree that the willingness to use them is equally or more important? Is there a way to teach the combat mindset, or is it something you either have or you don’t?

2

It seems like 100% of LE, CCW permit holders, gun owners, and the military as a whole run around spouting nonsense about them being the sheep dogs and are that rare part of the population ideally suited with the mentality and physicality of being lethal, dangerous killers ideally suited for their purpose.

That’s a pretty big population for those rare mindset guys.
Nothing wrong with those guard dogs and a lot of them will be just fine using lethal force.

Go to a much smaller population.
The hardcore SOF guys.

The real mindset of just killers is heavily concentrated there. In combination with demonstrated physical ability and mental fortitude and resilience.
These are not guard dogs.
They are hunting wolves who have decided to selectively hunt.

Very different mindset.

3

That is like asking someone if they are a bad-ass. To be frank, in modern society, if you don’t hesitate to answer that question, you are going to run into problems. Hell, just with range safety rules jammed in our heads that literally have me thinking constantly “180” during stages, the replacing of human silhouette targets the pointing a gun at someone is an incredible change from normal operating procedure. And what does your answer mean? The question is stupid and the answer is meaningless. Is the reason that you’d hesitate or say no because of the lack of training and confidence with a gun? Not knowing all the legalities?

OK, fine ask the question- but as a baseline for asking the question after the class.

Frankly, I’d really question a basic handgun class from someone that would operate like that.

As we get more and more videos, especially from body cams, my main concern is identifying the situation. It seems most of those videos go from zero to gun fight in a split second.

4

That’s my biggest worry. I have ZERO problem letting the air out of someone. But I have bad dreams about engaging in “bad shoots”, and getting into legal trouble.

5

I think I might have issue with an instructor in a basic handgun class saying that. That sort of attitude in the beginning is a red flag for me towards the instructor, not the student.

In fact, I have an issue with a “basic” handgun class being geared towards anything other than “basic” firearms use. A basic class should be geared around fundamentals and safety. Nothing more. Many people will hesitate in answering that question before taking a class simply because they don’t have the confidence yet at using a firearm in self defense.

My wife, who has taken several handgun classes is still not confident that she can shoot someone. Oddly enough, if you ask her if she has the ability to beat someone to death to defend herself or her children she wouldn’t hesitate to say yes.

6

The point is well-taken that there is probably a fine line between a willingness to use deadly force if necessary and an eagerness to use it. I get that.

But do you agree that hesitation in the actual gunfight can get you killed faster than not hesitating–IF–you are already sufficiently trained and/or experienced to instinctively know it’s a good shoot?

In other words, if you know your skills and mindset already well enough to recognize when you can use deadly force and when you cannot, do you think hesitation is a detriment or an asset in a gunfight? Does that extra split second decision help you not pull the trigger unnecessarily, or does it cause you to maybe be…dead?

My wife, who has taken several handgun classes is still not confident that she can shoot someone. Oddly enough, if you ask her if she has the ability to beat someone to death to defend herself or her children she wouldn’t hesitate to say yes.

I think this is what the trainer in my class was getting at. The mother bear deprived of her cubs is not to be trifled with. But could the person have the same ability to address a deadly threat in a solo situation? Does that person take a chance on her own weapon being used against her because she might hesitate?

To answer the unstated question: I DO believe the trainer in my case was a local guy, ex-LEO just trying to branch out into making some money using his creds, IIRC. That was my opinion of him at the time, I think. That was in the early 1990’s so I cannot even remember the guy’s name. I don’t think he still trains–at least not around here.

This area is the Wild West, literally and figuratively. It’s not uncommon for someone to start a handgun class with no more credentials than (cough) running a gun shop.

7

I agree its backwards. You dont need a warrier mindset to learn, they are generally built together. Most people in a basic course are just learning, I know a lot of people who have ccw and train but dont know if they could pull the trigger.

I think most people end up doing the right thing, and the question at that level of instruction seems out of place to me.

8

Here’s another monkey wrench: YOU DON’T KNOW HOW YOU WILL REACT UNTIL YOU ARE IN THAT SITUATION.

Given.

But there is an old saying, “Chance favors the prepared mind.”

Another might say, “Everyone hesitates. It’s human nature.” Just like it’s human nature when your gun goes click to try to pull the trigger again. Only training overcomes this.

And so the question stands: Is hesitation good or bad?

Does it keep you from shooting someone who might not deserve it, or does it potentially put you in the cemetery?

9

The problem is, you prefaced this with the fact it was a “basic” class geared towards self defense. Rather than weed out the weak, take the opportunity to sharpen them. Honestly, I’ve seen classes full of people that don’t hesitate at saying yes and the entire class was a train wreck. The whole premise is stupid. It’s easy to say yes, it’s hard to prove it. I’d far prefer a class full of thinkers that answer “it depends”… Mindset is a HUGE part of the equation, but without the training it’s virtually worthless. You can still shape and teach mindset.

While it’s not gunfighting, I’ve been a firefighter. I’ve seen a few guys that were all gung ho right up until the work began, then they hesitated. Luckily a fire is a slow moving thing (in most cases) compared to a gunfight, but the mindset can still be related. I had a guy that I worked with that constantly criticized every decision crews made and made a hobby of pointing out mistakes on youtube videos. When face with a dude that had his arm amputated above the elbow in a car crash he completely folded. The not very confident female that I worked with jumped right in and took care of the patient without hesitation. I truly believe you never know until you know.

10

My issue is that you are asking someone a question that about feelings when the real situation would be more about innate reactions. Asking and answering the question are a totally different parts of the brain.

If you have the time to wonder if you should be getting into a gunfight, that time would have been better spent thinking about how NOT to get into a gun fight.

If there is a gun fight, you are going to be instinctively acting/re-acting and asking the question is meaningless since you’re asking your cognitive function what your reactive self would do.

Sure, you can get that split second “It’s on like Donkey Kong” before it happens. Locking up at that point isn’t something that you can predict with a question.

11

Good point. I didn’t want to bias the discussion, but even I had reservations about the trainer’s attitude. I just wanted to get the discussion going.

Further, my dad’s attitude is flawed as well: sometimes it IS appropriate to brandish if you can accurately assess the situation that showing you are armed is sufficient to send the perps flying. The trick is knowing when that’s a good plan and when it’s not.

Good discussion so far.

You guys are really thinking about this, I can tell.

12

Not everyone is wired the same way. The first time I was ever shot at, it was small arms fire into my MH-6. Took a round in the windshield that fragmented and went into my right hand. Didn’t know I was hit until I pulled off the blood-filled glove. Then adrenaline kicks in and I operated on a mix of training and anger. After the mission I was stitched up by a Navy Corpsman on the USS Independence and the adrenaline high wore off. I started getting sick to my stomach. I was 23 years old that October of 1983.

13

That’s my take as well. Not just for myself, but the harm it causes your loved ones too.

14

There seems to be a pretty large segment of the “sheepdog” population that believes that warriors are born, not made. When I was in field training at my old PD, I had an FTO who I found impossible to work with, as he insisted that if one lacked the instinct to figure out the job without being taught, no amount of training would help them. I was reminded over and over that I was wasting my time, and everyone else’s, as I lacked traits that could be neither taught nor learned; I was either born for the job, or I wasn’t, and since I wasn’t, I had no business even trying.

The truth is, there are a lot of sheepdogs who want a large flock of sheep just as much as the wolves do. They want to be an elite class. They don’t want to protect the sheep because it is their instinct to protect; they want to do it because it means they’re better than the sheep, and the only ones worthy of respect. There are many “sheepdogs” who want the class to be so elite, that they consider the vast majority of other sheepdogs to be unworthy of holding the title. It sounds like the firearms trainer had an ego and basically just wanted to say that most will never be as good as him, and those not as good as him must remain sheep.

15

So funny. I have a similar take. That first time getting shot at your mind doesn’t really register what is happening at first. I was 33 years old that April of 1996 on the streets of Sarajevo.

16

For me one of the most important aspects of a combat mindset is “accepting this is real and is actually happening right now” vs. “OMG I don’t believe this is actually happening.”

That is probably the most important criteria for people who carry weapons for personal defense rather than a willingness to “kill em all” and that sort of thing.

The next important step after being able to accept “this is real, this is happening right now” is of course the ability to actually do something about it and the willingness to do those things.

17

Good point, but aren’t there people who are just naturally too timid to be much use in a self-defense situation?

It sounds like the firearms trainer had an ego and basically just wanted to say that most will never be as good as him, and those not as good as him must remain sheep.

True that.

18

I can think and discuss the topic ad nauseum. All I know, from less than lethal situations, but dire none the less, that when it comes to my siblings and kids, that I have little doubt that my ‘trigger’ would trip ‘crisply’ to protect them. Beyond that, maybe even for self preservation, till it happens I think the only answer is ‘probably’.

19

I can honestly say I’ve never met a single person who referred to themselves as a sheepdog.

20

Doesn’t matter, especially in a basic class.

Some are already there, some will gain the confidence after taking a class or two, and some will never be willing.