I recently bought my first AR, a RRA Elite CAR A4. (I know, I know. My next will be a builder.) I’ve also got a variety of mags – AR-Stoner, CProducts, and a bunch of PMAGs.
Reloading on an open bolt is not a problem; however, even with 30rd mags (including PMAGs) downloaded to 28, or 20s downloaded to 18, it’s extremely difficult to get the mag to seat when the bolt is closed. I am using a “beer can” hold on the mags, FWIW.
I basically have to do one of two things:
a. Release my firing grip and push the mag into the well, with great force, while applying counter pressure on the top of the receiver with my firing hand;
or
b. slam the mag into the well at high speed and with great force.
Method “A” takes about all the force I can muster and is very slow, and method “B” is still not reliable, 30-40% of the time the mag still does not seat and I have to keep slamming it home or banging on the baseplate until it locks in. (This probably isn’t doing the top round any favors either.)
Is there a better technique to this, or could there be something wrong? I’m paranoid about having an out-of-spec lower receiver, for example. I knew this would be difficult but didn’t expect this much trouble with downloaded mags. I am perfectly willing to accept that maybe I am just too wimpy but am hoping that I am just missing something. I don’t see why I should have to exhaust myself slamming in a few downloaded mags.
The “bang on baseplate” method seems to work most of the time, but I can’t count on the mag to not fall out of the magwell when I remove my hand to wind up for the slam. (And this will only get worse as the mags and magwell wear.)
Something must be going on, is it the same with all the mags downloaded to 28? the reason for the 28 is just that to allow the spring to move a little when compressed by the upward pressure of seating the mag.
I’d try some one elses gun and mags and see if it just your technique. I’d then have them try yours.
The Best thing you can do is go to a BASIC Carbine class and state that you are completely new to the system and start from there.
I learned from an angry old mean Irishman, the push then pull technique. The firm Push seats the magazine in the well then the pull down on the magazine ensures it is locked in…
Hour 2 training day 3: “PUSH/PULL did I forget to go over that” You hear this enough and you don’t for get it.
Additionally, I’d recommend against tweaking any springs or twisting and loosening/tightening anything yourself. There are plenty of Armorer’s that can hook you up.
It definitely sounds like you have some issues here. It shouldn’t take 2 hands for ANYONE to reload an AR mag…not even tiny females without much upper body strength.
With a mag downloaded to 28 rounds, reloads should be a relative breeze. It sounds like your mags are most likely in spec…
Meaning that something in your rifle might not be…either the mag well itself or the mag catch that holds the magazine in.
The mag catch would be my first guess, but I’m not an AR whiz like some of the guys on here.
I’ve tried it with a PMAG, 2 CProducts mags (1x30 and 1x20), an AR-Stoner, and also the mag that came with the gun (NHMTG). Same results with all.
I’ll definitely see if I can scrape up someone local with an AR I can try, right now I don’t know anybody in my area with one.
The amount of force I have to use can be likened to that required to crush the skull of a small animal. I didn’t think it was normal, but it being my first AR and all…
Later on I’ll experiment to see how few rounds I need to actually load in order to NOT have this problem. Sigh.
Since I reload from mag pouches most of the time my reloads go like this:
Mags floor plates up, bullet points facing to my right. I grab the bungee pull it left, off the floor plate, this is a very high speed, relatively rough act as they are pretty tight.
I then grab the mag with my left hand with my index finger on the mag’s front rib, my thumb on the side closest to me, and the rest of my hand cupped around the other side and the back rib.
Using the “cupping the floor plate” approach I can maintain a good enough hold on the mag to get it out of the pouch, and then flip it on the way into the mag pouch. Also, by cupping the mag I’m able to slam it in with a good amount of upward force.
After its in, I give it a firm slap to ensure it is seated. After that if I have time, I’ll give it a tug to make sure its in. I use this drill whether the gun is empty or if I’m swapping mags. Its just one little extra slap and it becomes muscle memory much easier if you just do it all the time regardless of the bolt closed or open.
BTW I use 30 rounds in USGI mags, I’d rather have two rounds and slap them a little harder. From the sound of things, some people are loading their mags till they can’t move the spring at all. That doesn’t seem like 30 to me. On all my mags there is about enough leeway to almost fit one more round in, even when loaded to thirty.
While you can do tac reloads with 30rds loaded in the mag, it is ALWAYS a better idea to down load to 28. Under stress, it will be easier and many a time a full loaded mag actually creates a malfunction in the weapon.
Remember that the AR mag is about the weakest link in the entire platform.
Also work on a push pull method. This will save time as your hand is already on the mag (no need take it off and then slap it again). I see guys that don’t get a lock on the first insertion and then as they go to slap it, the mag falls out.
GM, something doesn’t seem right. Do your mags drop freely (when empty)?
Another possible issue is the position of your mag catch. It could be too high which then forces you to try and push the feedlips of the mag into your bolt carrier.
I’d like to know if empty magazines are hard to seat as well. If so, it’s definitely something in the mag well or the mag catch and not some kind of technique or training issue.
OK, I’ve got some follow-up information. I appreciate everyone’s input.
Took a 30-rd PMAG, loaded it to 20 rds, and it was still VERY difficult to seat on a closed bolt. I’d say it was just as difficult as with a 28-rd load.
Downloaded the 30-rd PMAG to 10 rds, and it was much easier to seat successfully. Still not 100% reliable when rapidly slamming it home, but an improvement.
All mags do drop free when I trip the release, whether loaded or not.
With the bolt open, all mags seat very easily.
With the bolt closed, an empty mag seats easily. The weight of the gun is enough to seat it and lock it into place.
Well, still not sure what the deal is with this, but next weekend I will be at a shoot where hopefully some of the other attendees will also have ARs. If so, I’ll be able to try it on theirs, and they on mine, and I’ll see where this issue stands.
Yeah, if a PMAG won’t seat with authority, there is a problem. It could be a mag catch, or a dimensional issue, but without seeing it, i’m clueless.
Fanboy. We teach never to tap/ slap the bottom of the mag. If the bolt is open and the mag at all worn, you will have a volcano of ammo inside your upper receiver. We see this often, and had several shooters having this problem at the last Boone County class.
thanks for the tip about not smacking the mags. Hadn’t thought of that.
Moose:
I don’t have another of my own, but next weekend if anyone at the shoot is willing to trade carriers for a few minutes I will give that a shot. It probably won’t take long to figure out where the problem is once I have another weapon in-hand to compare it to.
At this point I am thinking it’s got to be one (or more) of the following:
mag catch engagement area is too tall
bolt carrier is too “tall” (fat from top to bottom, i.e., too much metal on the underside)
mag catch cutout is in the wrong place in the lower receiver
I can live with #1 or #2 and I would hope that RRA would just send me a new part without having to send the whole gun in, but if it’s #3 I am going to be very pissed.
I am highly suspicious that it is going to be #2 and/or #3, because when I remove the mag catch from the lower and insert a loaded mag (with bolt forward), I have to apply that same massive amount of pressure to get the mag’s cutout to line up with the cutout in the receiver.
Meanwhile I have put the calipers to the parts listed above and will post the specs in the RRA forum on TOS and see if their rep there can tell me anything definitive based on that.
Hey- none of us knows everything, and the advantage of a site like this is that we can share information. What i talk about is our doctrine; others may use something else.
However, this is what we teach (and for a reason).
Hope it helps.
Gunmetal, just swapping out uppers will indicate whether the problem is upper or lower receiver based i.e. if you swap a complete upper and find that the problem goes away, then the cause is likely related to your upper receiver group. Likewise, if the problem is still there, then it would seem to indicate that something in the lower is not correct.
Moose - yep, makes perfect sense, I guess that will be easier than pulling the BCG. Thanks for pointing that out. If it does turn out to be upper-related I’ll still want to know exactly what is causing it but that will quickly rule in or out the BC and anything else in the upper.
