Real Prints for AR??

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Hello everyone,

Been reading and reading…but have a question.

Does anyone know how to get more “real” blueprints for the AR?

I have seen some “Redrawn” once, that quite honestly being a machinist, I wouldn’t use them just because they don’t look professional, thus I don’t know if I would trust the tolerancing/dimensions of them. The “redrawn” ones I have found and compared to “real” ones have a couple discrepancies that lead me to believe that if a guy was gonna make some parts, having some source prints like “Colt” or “US Army” prints would be the best way to go.

Anyone got a direction that one could get his hands on blue prints. You would think that being how many years this gun has been around they would be all over, but I seem not to be looking in the right place.

Mike in MN

2

Edit: I just want to see what everyone else says now -.-

3

Call Colt. Have them send you a copy of prints and the TDP. You should offer to cover postage though.

4

LOL. Thats a good one.

I am sure that that won’t happen.

I have been reading here for a couple months and compared to other boards, this one is very specific to different materials, processes and such, heck even the staking comes into play.

I figured I would ask here because this forum seems to be the most focused on MIL-Spec and Quality so I just figured maybe you guys actually had the ‘real’ specs that you were basing your stuff by.

Mike in MN

5

There are a couple of AutoCAD files out there on the net. Can’t speak for their accuracy though.

6

A lot of us do follow tdp. A blueprint isn’t needed to do so. Not sure exactly why you’re wanting drawings.

7

To make parts.

Mike in MN

8

No… The C4 files in a data package are drawings.

“The AR-15” isn’t an M16 or an M4 though.

9

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/ar15_receiver.pdf

That was the first I found…can’t comment on the adherence to the TDP…I’ve never seen it…

I would be interested in actual AutoCAD or Solidworks file sets…though using the above blueprints to create them wouldn’t be overly difficult…

eta…I’m a dummy…I knew I’ve seen these before…not sure if you’ve run across these…http://www.cncguns.com/downloads.html

10

So may I assume that there is a “data package” that has real drawings somewhere?

Mike in MN

11

Some place like this would do it, but reliable data rarely comes cheap.

http://www.ihs.com/products/industry-standards/index.aspx

12

So you want drawings in order to make your own parts? :confused::suicide2:

13

Kinda what I was wondering.

14

Who do you think makes the parts you buy?? A machinist…lol… Like me :slight_smile:

I will tell you guys this, the ‘real’ prints I have seen in places I have worked (the prints of Colt, US Army), these parts are not that complex.

In the machining world, if you have worked in Aerospace or Defense industries, these gun parts are pretty wide open. And by Aerospace I don’t mean little airplane parts, I mean stuff that goes in space.

So you guys can roll your eyes all day long about someone that wants to “make” an AR and that’s ok because you guys don’t know any better.

But I will say, the biggest reason I am here is to learn how to “Build” an AR which I have “mad” respect for all of you(because I know better).

Just because I can make the parts to spec, tolerance and such, I know better that it is an art to build the darn thing to function like it is supposed to.

Mike in MN

15

Check this place out.

http://www.colfaxtactical.com/index.htm

Mike
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

16

I am curious if other manufacturers simply reverse engineer a sampling of Colt’s lowers within an observed dimensional tolerance and get their mechanical engineers to look at the mating parts and assembly to determine if it’s acceptable. Other manufacturers are producing a similar product, but Colt simply hangs onto “TDP” MIL-C-70559 as a controlled document/process. Did BCM purchase these controlled documents or did they simply come up with a process of their own which resulted in a similar-quality product?

You can reverse engineer the lower and build it better or worse than the MIL-C-70559 spec. MIL is only a set of specifications that is between X and Y. It doesn’t mean it’s better or worse than another set of specs. About a decade ago, an assload of MIL specs got superseded with SAE specs. They were identical before-and-after, except now you had to pay SAE to get them.

You can still buy “80% complete lowers” which require final machining operations. Obviously there is a market for them, but I’m not familiar with that market demographic or what the process is with the ATF once you’ve completed your own lower. Manufacturing firearm parts isn’t a black magic. As the OP says, this kind of stuff is fairly primitive and doesn’t hold a candle to aerospace manufacturing going on today. Laymen often posit how titanium or stainless “is a bitch to machine”. Titanium is a cakewalk.

17

Mike in MN, I am not a machinest. When you look at the time and energy and …is it cost effective to build an AR-15 from scratch? Do you have the ability to heat treat and X-ray?

I am guessing it is not while the parts are freely available, it is not cost effective.

So the only logical conclusion I can come up with is you are looking for the spec. to build a full auto gun. On that subject, all I can say it don’t do it. That friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who gets into a little bit of trouble for doing something stupid will turn you in and very few people look good in orange jump suits.

18

Having made my own from 80% I can say its a blast! Having made your own anything is extremely rewarding, as you saw it through and holds quite a bit of pride. I would not be so quick to assume the only “logical reason” he wants to do this is to make it auto or anything. Some guys just like to tinker and make there own kit and are not satisfied with paying when they could make it and maybe better. I make my own nylon gear, grow my own veggies and make my own guns. Its a blast and very rewarding, just my two cents.

But I tried cncguns

19

When you look at the time and energy and …is it cost effective to build an AR-15 from scratch? Do you have the ability to heat treat and X-ray?

Well the answer to your question is Yes! Like I said, these minor processes in these components are nothing compared to what I deal with everyday. Heat treaters, we have parts going out almost everyday. Platers, hard coat anodize, please… really. Almost everything made of Aluminum gets this process, with or without teflon. Grinding operations, x-ray inspect, chemical inspect… I could go on.

There are many threads that talk about what these components actually cost, and what the “public” pays for. I know what it costs, I have made quite a few of these particular components and if you guys new how many more “times” you are paying versus the manufacturing company is costing them, you wouldn’t be too excited about how much you pay for a name…lol (Yes, I know in alot of situations you think you are paying for their quality too, but I don’t wanna get into that)

to build a full auto gun

If I wanted a fully auto gun, I am machinist and design engineer. I would just make one. No need for actual specs for that.

Having made my own from 80% I can say its a blast! Having made your own anything is extremely rewarding

Exactly, I am sure you guys that buy different parts, assemble them and obviously “build” your own for the same reason versus buying a complete rifle, because it’s satisfying.

It’s exactly the same. If you had the ability to design, create, and make something you would feel the same way.

Side story… I was part of a team that made the housing system for the guidance system of the Patriot missiles… completely out of titanium. I was only in the trade for a couple years and scared about titanium, it’s like butter compared to some steels(now I know). That project was a bitch, but after the fact it was rewarding that only a few of us were able to pull it off and were not pulled from the project.

As far as MIL-SPEC and SAE, every designer throws that stuff in the mix just to conform to some standard. Most “real” machine shops that I have worked at have “internal” standards that far exceed MIL-SPEC standards. That’s why I chuckle a little bit when someone says made to MIL-SPEC, if it was a real shop, they would advertise “Made better than MIL-SPECxxx”.

Mike in MN

Mike in MN

20

there’s not a damn thing wrong with wanting to make your own parts, especially when you probably program and machine significantly more complex parts all day every day.

are some of you not capable of just answering a fucking question without instead inserting your own gay opinion? if you think a thread is retarded, report it and move on to the next.