Questions about M855A1

General Firearms Terminal Ballistic Information
21

The only rifle it’s known to damage is the M27. There is currently no tungsten in the round. The prototypes early on had a tungsten core under the steel penetrator, but that was changed to copper, to improve accuracy and reduce cost. It’s just a steel penetrator, like M855, except it’s heavier.

There’s apparently some wear on the feed ramps in the barrel extension if you’re using standard mags, but it’s something that happens over many thousands of rounds. And if you use either EPMs or Gen 3 Pmags then it’s no longer an issue at all. And supposedly changing that presentation angle improves reliability anyways, so it’s not like you’re giving anything up. I’ve heard all the arguments, and talked to several people who have been using it in service, and the rumors are all just that, rumors.

M855A1 is the Excalibur of 5.56. It has a short neck out of any barrel at any range, it’s almost as good as bonafide AP, and it’s almost match grade. And all that from something that’s the same price as M193 and M855. Hell I shouldn’t even be saying all this because I’m just going to make it harder for me to get it when it comes out on the commercial market. In fact, don’t listen to me, it’s awful, and if you ever come across some don’t use it because it will ruin your AR. Send it to me and I’ll dispose of it for you.:wink:

22

Comprehensive Test of the Magpul Industries Corp PMAG Gen 3 Magazine (2018)

23

Ahhh…I see. Thank you!

24

855a1 is the best GP ammo ever issued, IMO. I was skeptical at first, because I thought the motive was bad. But I have come to like it. I probably have more experience than most with this round, but no combat experience with it. My observations:

Its FAST. Some buddies and I chronoed it out of 14.5” ,18”, and 20” barrels. I don’t recall the numbers, exactly, but it was faster than green tip, significantly.

I don’t see an unusual amount of stoppages in M16’s and M4’s. I also have a limited sampling of rounds fired through a 14.5” Noveske barreled rifle, with no stoppages. Very limited, though.

It wrecks steel. The penetrator tip seems harder than the penetrator in M855, and as I said it seems a bit hotter.

I don’t think its destroying guns, but I do suspect it operates at higher pressure. Its been quite a while since I have seen a broken bolt (M855, actually) but there are probably confounding factors there. Either way, I’m not seeing the pile of broken weapons that others predicted.

I have seen one M16 that had some pitting beneath the barrel extension feed ramps that looked as though rounds were striking the aluminum of the receiver. I have no way of knowing the cause, so I cannot attribute the damage to M855a1. The weapon functioned without issues, with M855a1. I rarely get to participate in cleaning the weapons, so I cannot say if other weapons show similar wear.

I’m not seeing a problem with gray mags with green or tan followers, gray mags with Magpul followers, or Okay Surefeeds. I’ve not tried a meaningful amount with PMags or black HK mags yet. I have not used the new Surefeeds with the bumps on the mag body.

I feel like we’re seeing better groups than I remember with green tip. Take this with several grains of salt, because I haven’t really tested this, and I’m not Molon, not even a little. I can say with certainty, though, that accuracy is not worse, with M4’s and M16’s. Edit: I just looked at a photo of 10rnd groups fired to demonstrate zero shift. Rounds fired included M855, Precision One 62gr steel-free, Fusion MSR, and M855a1. Rifle was Noveske 14.5” stainless. M855a1 had the tightest group, but no effort was being made to fire the best possible groups, so that could be a fluke.

It is said to have excellent terminal characteristics.

25

This was my first time shooting 855A1, shot at 25m with a 68. It doesn’t really say anything without an 855 group to compare, but it was noticeably tighter. Once we got fielded the new M4s, it was even better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

26

Sierra 69-grain Match Kings are very close in length to M855 Green Tip. M855A1s are close to Sierra 77-grain Match Kings in length. A1 groups much, much better than average Green Tip.

My teams have fired it through M16A2s, M16A4s, and M4A1s with some pretty impressive results. I never saw significant wear feeding it out of legacy standard GI 20- and 30-round magazines. It’s been the issue ammo for the Army Rifle and Pistol Championships.

I’d pick it any day over Green Tip and M193 (unless I’m shooting it at my own steel targets – they’ll get torn up).

My kid drawing M855A1 at the Army Championships in March:

27

Well I got some depressing news today. Apparently the government holds patents for the EPM and EPR, and they’re making manufacturers under contract agree to not sell either one to any non government entities.

So yea, that’s what the pentagon thinks about your constitutional rights. Ironic, they use our tax dollars to develop a new round, which they then unconstitutionally deny to the very people who funded its development. By the people and for the people my asss.:mad:

So it would seem that supply isn’t the problem, which suggests we probably won’t ever get much out on the open market. It’s in the same boat as SS190 and Mk211. Completely legal, but tightly controlled by the people who have the patents on it, effectively keeping it out of reach.

28

There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that mandates military-developed ammunition needs to be sold publicly. There was nothing stopping a civilian company from inventing something like the M855A1 and patenting it first, but nobody did. If the government prevented civilian companies from developing it in the first place, you might have a point. But that’s not the case. The military just happened to develop it first and used patent law. The constitution isn’t about forcing organizations into giving you stuff. You have two totally reasonable options as a civilian:. 1. Buy any number of fantastic rounds currently on the market. 2. Wait for the patents to expire and start buying M855A1.

The M855A1 is a huge step up from M855, and is a great general issue round. But really, civilians have much better selection of ammunition.

29

Except they used our money to develop said patents.

How would you like it if your employees used your company’s time, money, and resources to develop something, then not only went out and got a patent outside your company, but denied your company the opportunity to even use those patents, instead granting exclusive rights to your competitor?

Because that’s exactly what’s happening in this case.

You would be pissed about it, and you would sue those employees, and you would win.

30

So, you want everything the government creates available to you with no regard for keeping things out of the hands of foreign militaries?

Also, your analogy is flawed, as government workers aren’t your employees. They’re employees of an organization that’s run by representatives you elect or those appointed by representatives you elect. They’re not developing things on your time. They report to the elected representatives, not you. Exactly how a democratic republic is supposed to function. And who is this competitor that the government is granting patent access to in your analogy? Do you also tell LEOs they can’t write you a ticket because they’re your employee and you pay their salary with taxes?

Government intellectual property is no different than government equipment. Just because you pay taxes doesn’t mean you get to go down to the nearest Air Force Base and hop in an F-16. It doesn’t mean you can go to your fire station and borrow an axe. Taxes don’t mean you can do whatever you want with government property, whether it be equipment or intellectual.

31

I’ve fired hundreds of rounds of it(if not several thousand) in similar events as your son, typically out of M16A2s and A4s. I’ve not seen malfunctions due to ammo or broken rifles yet, though I’ve seen at least one M9 break at each event I’ve been sent to. I use the M3 PMAG, as do most of my buddies. Seeing people take M16A2s and shoot basketball sized groups at 500 yards from bone stock rifles tells me the ammo is plenty accurate. When people are able to look past what their pet rifles and tuned loads can do, it is impressive what training, decent ammo, and a rifle that hasn’t been completely beat to death can do. Sometimes “good enough” is quite good. If it were on the shelf and priced in line with green tip, it would probably be my non-precision, non-plinking load.

32

I’m gonna go ahead and be That Guy.

I seriously doubt some dude getting zapped with a 5.56 is gonna be like “pssht. Shoulda used 855A1, dingus” and walk away like nothing happened.

Statistically more people have been killed with 55gr ball during that little thing called Vietnam.

Pay scalpers prices all day but I can live my best life without buying 855A1 at walmart. Glad it exists, glad our service members have better than green tip, but I doubt I am missing on some big super bullet that causes mini nuke explosions in people and automatically makes their next of kin die from the sheer awesomeness of the round.

I mean…I have a 7.62, y’all. I have a 7.62

33

If I recall correctly, one of the primary reasons for the new round was to address terminal ballistics at the extended ranges our guys were encountering in Afghanistan, where M855 wasn’t having the effects we needed at 300+ meters out of 14.5” barrels. I’m guessing that the muzzle velocity of M193 out of a 20” M16 barrel helped make it an effective round, but it would probably struggle in a similar way at 300+ meters from an M4, especially fired at a high angle up into the mountains.

34

Unless your threat matrix involves having to take on guys wearing AR500 plates as armor there is no reason to pick M855A1 over any of the good defensive loads available to us as civilians.

35

The competitor in this case would be the military, vs. the people. And your analogies are flawed.

M855A1 is not classified, and therefore carries no risk associated with foreign governments getting their hands on it. In fact, the pentagon seems to be okay with manufacturers exporting to foreign governments, as long as it’s a legal government entity with no sanctions against it. Just as long as no lowly peasants get their hand on any.

And intellectual property developed by the government is different than actual physical government property. Of course I can’t go borrow an F16, just like I can’t go appropriate a bunch of M855A1 from a military range. But that’s different from me buying it from a manufacturer. I would even be okay with the government getting a royalty for use of the patent, like the Navy does with the Mk14 chassis.

But to deny the people use of non classified intellectual property that was developed on their dime, that is tyranny. Especially since it’s being done with the express purpose of trying to ensure that we can’t possess military grade ammunition, even when said ammunition is legal under federal law. The motive here is not national security, it is to deny the people their right of having the same arms as the military. You clearly don’t understand the purpose and scope of the 2nd Amendment.

36

Indeed. Though, if M855A1 were available at M193/M855 prices, I’d consider using it over 73-77gr for general purpose stock. I’d probably still go with good quality 64-77gr stuff, but the price for something decent like the M855A1 would be tempting. However, if hypothetical M855A1 prices were higher than normal surplus, I would definitely choose the normal civilian options.

37

Huh? The military is the developer of the ammo. How could they be the competitor?

M855A1 is not classified, and therefore carries no risk associated with foreign governments getting their hands on it. In fact, the pentagon seems to be okay with manufacturers exporting to foreign governments, as long as it’s a legal government entity with no sanctions against it. Just as long as no lowly peasants get their hand on any.

Nope. You’re missing ITAR considerations. In fact, “lowly peasant” US civilians can obtain all sorts of stuff that is restricted for foreign transfer. You need to do more research on that.

And intellectual property developed by the government is different than actual physical government property. Of course I can’t go borrow an F16, just like I can’t go appropriate a bunch of M855A1 from a military range. But that’s different from me buying it from a manufacturer. I would even be okay with the government getting a royalty for use of the patent, like the Navy does with the Mk14 chassis.

But to deny the people use of non classified intellectual property that was developed on their dime, that is tyranny. Especially since it’s being done with the express purpose of trying to ensure that we can’t possess military grade ammunition, even when said ammunition is legal under federal law. The motive here is not national security, it is to deny the people their right of having the same arms as the military. You clearly don’t understand the purpose and scope of the 2nd Amendment.

I don’t think you understand the magnitude of military “arms” that is created for the DoD that is both unclassified and not released to the general public for security reasons. Advanced UAV autonomy algorithms? Check. Advanced materials and textiles? Check. Computer vision tracking and track fusion? Check. The list goes on and on and on. A lot of it is unclassified, but falls under both ITAR and general security precautions.

I absolutely understand the purpose and scope of the 2A. You seem to be extending it to any government property. There are several factors at play here. 1. There’s nothing really more “military-grade” about the M855A1 over the plethora of Mk262 versions on the civilian market. The M855A1 won’t make you more able to fight an oppressive government or fight off an aggressive external force. 2. The government didn’t prevent any civilian company from inventing the M855A1 on their own. There was no suppression of weapon innovation on the civilian side. 3. Ideally the federal government would provide a basic combat load of 210 rounds of an issued cartridge to every able-bodied citizen who agrees to be a militiaman. But then the militiamen would get the old stuff first, so you’d probably get M193 or M855 anyway.

Oh well, I’m not going to change your mind. I’ll get back to work so you don’t fire me, and I’ll be sure to CC you on any emails I have so you’ll feel like you’re getting your money’s worth with your taxes.

38

It makes me sad that not one of us losers is Gecko45…

39

ITAR isn’t a problem for friendly nations selling each other arms. If you think ITAR applies to them then you’re missing the point. And if you think restricting M855A1 to civilians has anything whatsoever to do with security you’re either delusional or just refusing to see the forest for the trees.

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment, the only purpose, is to ensure that the government doesn’t restrict civilian access to arms that it has. The whole idea is to make sure the people have the same arms as they do.

Also, the government doesn’t own its patents, the American people do. The government is merely a custodian of them, and has an obligation to leverage them to the peoples’ advantage. That’s why I said I’m fine with them getting royalties.

The problem with M193 is that it’s very dependent on barrel length and twist rate. It works best out of a 20" 1:12, and the further you deviate from that the less effective it becomes. It’s also limited because of its light weight and low BC. And it’s a bad penetrator, so auto glass and steel is definitely a problem.

Essentially, M855A1 gives you M193 level performance, but it’s not confined to certain barrels or ranges. It works out of 10-20" barrels with any twist rate and will still tumble and fragment at any point in its effective range. And all that with match level accuracy and near AP level penetration. The stuff is truly awesome, and there’s absolutely nothing on the commercial market that even begins to approach it, at least not that I’m aware of. Especially for the price.

40

It’s better than 855 but I have no experience with it. I’m just saying not everyone has to deal with dudes coming at them with plate armor and if they do then they need more friends.

If I knew someone thought enough of me to come at me like a ninja turtle then I have a Garand sighted at 300 meters with a cvc bag with of clips with black tip ammo.

I am somehow surviving without 855A1.
And not just no, but hell no to paying 50 bucks a 20 round stripper clip of stolen military ammo off gunbroker