How are modern optics holding up in real combat?
I was raised old school, my father was a marine from the 60’s and 70’s doesn’t believe in optics on a combat rifle. I was in the original gulf war, we didn’t have optics on our weapons. On my own AR’s I have a mix of low power scopes and red dots. on my varmint AR I have a high power scope, but I don’t use them in combat.
The good ones are holding up as well as iron sights.
More and more when I see photos of Rangers OCONUS they seem to be running their SOPMOD Block II’s w/o any irons. Granted, they have a PEQ or some other laser for backup, but the optics now are so good they don’t seem to be bothered with irons.
Haven’t seen a Marine OCONUS with iron sights in at least 7 years.
ACOGs are bombproof.
At least as much as iron sights are.
I believe the answer to the lack of BUIS has a lot to do with the supply lines and support strength, unit/team SOP for getting a gun out of the fight, and the ability for the individual to apply his knowledge (or lack of) to his personal weapon setup.
I’ve never deployed without my folding rear sight. I’ve never had a teammate deploy without one either, though I know others do it often and without incident. I’ve seen optics that shouldn’t last be the ones that last the longest, as well as the ones that should last the longest be the first to go. There’s a value to having more than one weapon system available within the team, even when it’s a bitch to hump around with you. And training to shoot without a rear sight using only your FS as a reference is certainly possible. Combat shooting is very different in reality than training ranges often are.
Don’t want to hijack, but I recall you saying on here (years ago) that a fixed 4x is a bad decision for a fighting gun but you didn’t elaborate. Do you still feel that way, specifically about the ACOG? I know it’s not ideal for CQB but the damn things just never (ok, rarely) break.
Not to speak for Failure… but this is a durability discussion… not so much as to if the COG is a good option.
My list of gripes with the COG is pretty long, but one of the worst things about it is the 1.5" of eye-relief, which hasn’t changed.
I significantly favor the 3x and 3.5x models.
I could ramble on about the chevron reticle, illumination, BDC, lack of wind-holds, etc, but I don’t want to totally hijack.
Prior AF:
I never saw an M4 without irons stateside or deployed.
I also never saw a aimpoint comp m4 fail. I never turned mine off in years. Everything like lasers and lights failed me multiple times deployed and stateside. Only streamlight and surefire have a spotless record in my hands.
If it says “made in Sweden”, I’d have no problems going to war with it.
Depends on what optics. Obviously ACOGs have a reputation for being built like tanks(Though they have and can go down. And yes teh eye relief sucks, but I do love me my TA01NSN :)). Aimpoint’s record is also well know and in some eyes an Aimpoint is close to, or as durable as a set of irons. That said, I do have friends who had optics shit the bed on them while overseas and even in combat. Had one friend of mine who was in Iraq who had an Eotech shit the bed twice. For some that Eotech failed is not going to surprise, though I can’t recall what model it was exactly, and don’t know how old the optic was(First because Eotech’s model numbers are only so much gibberish to me, and second because it just now crossed my mind), but I think it also points that that not all optics are made the same as well. I personally like having irons as back ups, if for nothing else than piece of mind because shit does happen. Usually when you don’t have extras or back up about.
Example, keep a spare battery with your Aimpoint and it will never run out. Go to the range without spare and optic deader than shit. Trust me, happened to me! Lol. Thank god I had irons or it would have only been point shooting that day.
The M68CCOs and TA31/TA01’s work fine, and in some cases work even if the weapon they’re mounted to has been damaged beyond usability. The newer stuff seems just as durable (Leupold Mk8, S&B Short Dot, VCOG/Mk6/Vortex 1-6x) and the Micro Aimpoints are more durable than they get credit for.
Without a doubt, for combat uses optics earn their spot on weapons for the added capability and are more than robust enough; in my experience Aimpoints, Surefires, ACOGs, and Irons are about as reliable; everything is subject to failure, but it takes some crazy stuff to kill those off most of the time.
I still always have a set of irons of some sort attached to my guns.
This. Aimpoints are incredibly robust. However I do know a guy who had his shot off his rifle.
Is there an exception made for precision rifles (e.g. 3-18x and running an offset aimpoint), or is that still a hard and fast desired setup (since the right weather to fog a scope can do the same to an aimpoint)?
In my experience, ACOGs are rock solid, newer Aimpoints are good, older Aimpoints like the Comp2 M68s are a little less so, and EOTechs are much better than their online reputation would make you think. Hell, one of my guys “mistook” his equipment release for his lowering line… and his weapon nose dived 200-400ft into Sicily Drop Zone. The M4 was bent to hell, with a definite curve to the the carbine, but the EOTech stayed on, and still worked. I’m pretty sure they coded out the M4, but not the EOTech (or the PEQ-15 for that matter).
As for irons, I’ve seen several issued weapons without rear sights. The issued rear flip up BUIS is pretty much garbage. I’d say half of the ones in my current platoon are broke, and either won’t stay down at all, or will pop up every time the weapon is fired. That’s not a problem for guys with ACOGs, as sight sits under the ACOG, and can’t flip up all the way, but for guys with Aimpoints, I feel sorry. Ruins their sight picture if they’re trying to shoot with the damn things down.
I actually prefer offset irons over offset MRDSs, as there are common instances that will take glass out of usefulness.
Now, for a pure game/fun gun I don’t have the same insistence on redundant aiming capability, but the 3 big players in my long gun arsenal adhere to it.
I can NOT run an Optic ONLY on any gun ever. My OCD requires me to reconcile the irons to the Red Dot before each shoot… and nearly every time I pick up the gun.
Nephew is at Air Force Academy qualified with m4 and red dot. Never had to use irons. They weren’t even mounted. Work buddy’s son went through USMC basic. Qualified only with ACOG. Never shown how to use irons. Not even sure how he’d have used irons if they were there. The ACOG was not in a QD mount.
IMO (no combat experience) having BUIS on the gun and knowing how to use them effectively is never a bad thing. However if I found myself on a 2 way range somehow and didn’t have BUIS; but only a quality optic I wouldn’t feel inadequate.
Cherry jumpers + N/CE/MT = deadlined equipment.
There’s tons of good info in this thread. A quality optic will perform very well and be more than durable enough to bet your life on. The 4x ACOGs and CompM4s have a battle proven record, but as has been mentioned, the newer glass like the Vortex 1-6, Leupold Mk6/Mk8, Aimpoint Micro, and even the EOTech EXPS’ will serve you well.
As for BUIS…I took mine off since I’m issued a TA31. I moved my ACOG back all the way on the receiver to place my head back further when shooting. Having banged my teeth shouldering my rifle more than I’d like to admit, I prefer to run my ACOG this way. Since I don’t have a quick detach mount, I’m not going to pull a screwdriver out and take off my ACOG if it goes down, so I just ditched the BUIS. As Alpha-17 stated, the Matech’s are garbage anyway.