Extending the stock out and grasping forward gives more leverage on the gun. Spread out the contact points…butt on shoulder, cheek some distance forward on stock, support hand way out front…and you’ve got more leverage on the gun to snap it quickly and stop precisely on target, transition to other targets, and to bring your sight back on target in recoil.
Of course, it can be taken too far. You don’t want your arms out completely straight, and obviously an M16A4 stock can be too long for a short dude in body armor, etc. But in general, a longer longer stock, and longer handguard allow more control. To a point.
With the buttstock fully extended, it allows you to lean your head farther into the rifle. I still do nose to charging handle with the stock fully extended and I’m not a huge guy (5’10").
Lean my head further into the rifle? Are you now talking about eye relief?
I’m used to nose to charging handle, with the stock fully extended I can lean really hard into the gun. Eye relief I think is personal preference, I just find it consistent to always put my nose to the charging handle.
Not saying I don’t believe what the guys at Tigerswan are saying, I just don’t understand the benefit as it has been explained so far. If you increase the length of the carbine wouldn’t it now require more leverage to maneuver?
I’m going to try and go full nerdy white guy here so bear with me…
you’re increasing the length of the carbine somewhat by extending the stock, but not having much effect on the moment of inertia (I think that’s it…been a long time since I was an engineering student). The stock itself is relatively light.
Most of the weight is in the receiver and barrel. Center of gravity/moment of inertia…whatever, it isn’t changing much by extending the stock.
But by extending the stock some, you’re mostly giving it a longer handle = more leverage, all of which translates into more control. That, and a its a little more natural position on the gun, not being all cramped up behind it.
Note that 3-gunners, who could configure their guns however they want, tend to have stocks on the long side, and have long handguards as well. And they are pretty dang fast.
Well stated…I’ll ponder that a bit. RE 3-gunners, they also use muzzle breaks/Comps too though right? I am more concerned the technique works well with mil/LE configured carbines.
Another way of thinking of it. You could take two otherwise equal 1911s, but with different length grips, say a Colt Officers model and Colt Defender (or whatever has the same length slide, but different grip). The longer framed grip is going to be easier to control in recoil, and its got more to do with leverage than weight.
Or a Glock 17 vs a chopped down G17 for G19 mags. Same idea.
Wouldn’t that be increasing the mass whereas with a collapsible stock carbine it stays the same you just move it closer or farther in relation to the body.
I use a functionally stock 6920 with a pinned FSB and a carbine length rail as my “instructor” gun. Extending the stock allows me the increase reach on the front of the gun without having to go to a longer rail. I have been using that basic setup for several years now, in practical use, competition, and combat (from enclosure clearing to helo assault and patrolling). I have evolved my grip and weapon setup for over a decade, and I am happy with the progress so far. I did things differently 6 years ago, but it was a step in the progression that I needed to experience to fully appreciate where I am now (I’m a “gotta do it myself” kinda guy).
When it comes to the front hand grip, getting it further out on the gun helps in a few ways compared to a more compressed front hand grip. It moves the gun better on tight transitions, it stops the gun better on wide transitions, it stabilizes the gun better during movement, it integrates better with supported (barricade) positions, it puts the hand in a better position to activate lights, and it gives a better “straight line” pull or push with the support hand for recoil management. I resisted the extended support hand for a long time, but once it “clicked” it allowed me to get more out of the gun. I have seen the same with my students, mil and civilian.
My experience is based on M16A2s, M16A4s, M4A1s, Mk18s, AKMs of various flavors, FN FALs, M1014s, FN SLPs, MP5s, and SA80s, some slick and some with all kinds of stuff hanging off of them, with irons and optics.
Extending the stock also moves the center of gravity for the rifle farther from your center of gravity. Doing so would make it theoretically more difficult to control, not easier, as the intertia of the rifle would have a longer lever arm. This is the same reason guys advocate the extended grip (you are exerting force farther out, increasing leverage). If you move your support arm out while simultaneously moving the center of gravity of the rifle out you don’t really gain anything as far as I can tell. The distance between the rear sight and the eye is a valid argument, however.
I’m still not sold on the extended support arm, but I know I don’t like extending my stock. This is primarily due to my main use for my rifle, which is patrol work where I’m inside buildings frequently. Many of these buildings are small homes with narrow hallways and doorways so I use an SBR with a partially collapsed stock to improve maneuverability. Technique has to work in your real world evironment and extended stocks and/or long barrels don’t work as well for my application. YMMV
It appears that some of the information on stances seems to differ. So far the points that most trainers seems to agree on is a “fighting stance”, with the body bladed, the stock extended out, knees bent, with the weight on the balls of the feet.
However, on DAV’s website, David Borreson and JD Potynski stand relatively straight up compared to Dan in the VTac video. Dan seems to be leaning fairly far forward. Surf, I wasn’t able to see your how straight you were standing.
Also, it appears from the pictures, that JD and DAV both slightly chicken wing the elbows of their strong side, while others seem to prefer elbows tucked in.
So many things to try…
Surf, do you recommend slightly “chicken winging” the strong side elbow to counteract the 1 to 3 o’clock bounce?