I’ve searched and just can’t find what I’m looking for. Does someone have a link to pics and explaining proper stance. Like starting from the ready position for a vtac 1/2&1/2. Also could some explain when they say"drive" the weapon on target?
This article from Dave Borresen ( Tigerswan Instructor) should help what I believe your looking for
http://davidthedavborresen.blogspot.com/2012/02/modern-fighting-carbine-stance.html
That was an awesome article. Very concise and to the point.
Thanks for sharing!
Here’s a great video from the Boss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw&feature=endscreen&NR=1
I’m interested in comments on proper stance as well. Right handed shooter.
I routinely shoot with my buttstock two-three clicks out, support hand (left) gripping the forend of the rifle in a semi-beer car grip with the ring and pinky finger against the VFG. The stock is either in my shoulder pocket or on my pectoral muscle.
My rifles are equipped with Battlecomps.
When I take a single shot, using a 8" circle as my target at 25 yards, my rifle tends to swing off target to the right just off the paper. There is no vertical movement as I believe the Battlecomp has mitigated most of that. The movement to the right is viewed by the red dot veering off target. I’ve done some experimentation with this and found that the only way I can consistently keep the red dot from moving (much) is by tucking the gun in close to the centerline of my body like demonstrated in Magpul Dynamics AOTTC 1. However, I don’t believe that many trainers are still advocating that style of shooting.
About 6 months ago, I asked Mike Pannone about this (very briefly), and he told me that I might be over-driving the gun. I asked him the question at the end of a night shoot, so we were wrapping up and some of the suggestions he gave me are not that fresh in my mind. Much of what he said had to do with stance and body mechanics, but I can’t remember exactly what it was. It’s my own fault for not listening better.
Any tips on what I can do to correct this?
The Article and the Video sort of contradict each other.
In terms of how much you lean forward and how your head is positioned. Also how far apart the feet are spread and how much the knees are bent.
Although Jerry is more concerned about competition shooting and the article is more combat/LE orientated it seems.
I prefer a more aggressive stance in pistol and rifle shooting. More leaned forward, knees bent, and feet spread.
Not too crazy, but more than Jerry shows in the video.
It works and is repeatable for me
First off, Jerry is the MAN! He is a world champ action shooter. But he is not a gun fighter…nor am i so lets make that clear. But ultimately, what Jerry is stating works for a competition arena, and not a SD/HD arena. Every human being has a different Center of Gravity, and we all balance differently. So taking another mans stance on stance is simply not good. If an advanced carbine instructor forces you into something that feels unnatural…it’s because it is! You balance differently than he/she does. You need to work on what stance works best for you, and gives you the best recoil management, maneuverability, balance…and ability to give repeatable combat precise hits.
Grip is another thing. I totally agree on the modern theory of putting the thumb over the bore with the arm extended and driving the gun target to target. We have to balance many key points in any shooting situation.
If i am in a 3 gun arena…It’s all about speed and accuracy. That generally doesn’t apply here.
If i am in a SD/HD arena, i want to be in a fighting stance that allows me to dive to cover and minimize my exposure when necessary.
That’s the biggest thing i notice on the USPSA range, and when i watch 3 gun videos.
When I’m competing, I notice how the LEO’s and Military guys always tend to shoot from cover and minimize exposure. This is the way they are trained. The rest of us tend to throw our selves out there so we are comfortable and can shoot fast and accurate…That’s good for a 1 way range but not a 2 way range.
Ultimately, if you are trying to watch videos, read books, and look and pictures of stance and grips…you are losing, because you are not practicing with what works for you.
YOU CAN learn a lot from a class…but it’s not the gospel. That’s why many instructors are also students. Because they are constantly trying to learn.
Good Luck in your endeavors.
I’d be very careful to discredit techniques used in competition. Virtually every top flight (read face shooter) instructor I know of agrees that they learned more about shooting from techniques developed in the competition arena than they did in their military training. So much so that many high speed units hire competition shooters to instruct their guys. Jerry Barnhart comes to mind, so do others. That many are emulating competition techniques in the real world is what we call a clue.
Let’s be clear, competition shooting is about delivering accurate fire on a target as rapidly as possible. Shooting technique is a very different animal than tactics. Tactics that work in competition MAY not translate well to combat, shooting technique almost certainly does. How is shooting less accurately and slower, more “tactically correct”? :no:
I’ve never shot in combat but I know a lot of guys that have…who don’t shoot very well. Do tactical circumstances require compromises of technique? Sure but those compromises remain sub-optimal.
For myself a more aggressive stance means that there is more mass/gravity for recoil to push against. This translates to greater accuracy and speed.
That forward aggressive stance looks very similar to how I was taught to fire the old M16 when using full auto back in the early '90s.
I’ve taken a carbine course with Tigerswan and also Pat McNamara and they both taught me to use a boxing stance and stock fully extended. The reason for the fully extended stock was explained to me as wanting to handle as much as the weapon as possible.
They both also advocated grabbing as far out on the handguard as possible with thumb gripping over the rail. It was awkward for me at first, as I used to be a VFG user, but now I feel like I can drive the gun (transition from target to target) a lot faster and also manage recoil a lot better. A key thing is to make sure the stock doesn’t go over the shoulder, really tuck that stock into the pocket.
Take a carbine course from a reputable instructor. It’s taken my carbine shooting to a whole new level
Could you elaborate on the stock fully extended?
VTAC guys running the 1/2 and 1/2. Dan has a good stance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oYRn_llgo
Here is my stance running the 1/2 and 1/2. Feet about shoulder width apart, knees bent, slight bend at the waist, balls of my feet. Right foot about 8" to the rear of the front foot. Fighters type of stance. I also use an outstretched grip with a thumb over or “C” clamp type of grip. I like to extend the stock when not running armor. In armor my stock needs to collapse a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XjNGD18pmQ
As a combat style shooter I do things slightly different than say what a competition shooter might do, however the styles are very very similar and indeed have the same roots. In reality as far as old school tactical or combat shooting goes, I am kind of “outside of the box” as far as style goes. Often considered too similar to a competition style. But many in the tac world are starting to “get it”. 
As far as “over driving” the gun goes, that is a real potential with this style. Competition guys may tend to keep both elbows pointed outward, ala Jerry M. style. However the tac or combat shooters will keep that primary elbow “tucked in” so as to avoid the “chicken wing” to keep the shooters profile lower and not get it shot off. With an outstretched support hand aggressively working the forend and often putting side pressure or more resistance on the support side forend, the weapon wants to recoil, or moreso take the path of least resistance in say a 1 to 3 o’clock bounce for say a right hander. Without the elbow on the primary side sicking out to help balance these forces, “over driving” the weapon can be even more of an issue for those of us tucking in that primary elbow. Being aware of this and learning to deal with that helps greatly.
Thanks for the vids and I subscribed to your YouTube link you have alot of vids I’m interested in. So as a shooter; pic the stance that works for me and go with it?
My guess is the big reason for difference between Jerry’s stance and the more aggressive stances as shown by the folks at Tigerswarn, Kyle Lamb, Mike Pannone, etc has to do with the equipment used. They all want to be able to shoot as fast and accurately as possible, but their rifles are not the same.
Jerry is using a pretty effective muzzle break…not as much recoil to deal with. So, he can probably afford to have a more nuetral, erect stance…because his compensator is keeping his dot ifrom jumping around as much.
The Tigerswan folks and their ilk need a technique that’s going to work well with a variety of guns that aren’t using muzzle break/compensators.
The stock is in the most extended position gives more area for you to grasp and control.
How does that work? The size of the butt doesn’t change whether extended or not. The handguard is still the same size as well. How does that give you more area to grasp?
The DAV is a great dude and great shooter!
Great point! I would have hoped we were past the days of not recognizing the value that comp shooters bring to the table…
Classic example of regurgitated bullshit. The major benefit of an extended stock is, in laymans terms, to create more distance between the eye and the rear aperture. This allows more accuracy when acquiring sight picture. Particularily useful for shooters who use the large aperture for most medium to cqb range shooting.
But comfort is more important, particularily when wearing kit. For example i usually run a mil spec buttstock fully extended but the sopmod is a bit much for my dimensions so I bring it in one notch.
Don’t give advice unless you know what you are talking about.
With the buttstock fully extended, it allows you to lean your head farther into the rifle. I still do nose to charging handle with the stock fully extended and I’m not a huge guy (5’10").
I’m just regurgitating what I was taught by Pat McNamara and Eddie over at tigerswan. If you read Dave Borresen’s post, he also advocates fully extended stock. If you don’t like it you don’t have to call it bullshit.