These posts were broken out of the french army G17 thread.
Why does the shooter need to pull the slide back to peek in the chamber when the pistol has a loaded chamber indicator?
Good question. I suspect it may be a habit from previous pistol use.
Mechanical devices fail. An extractor or an LCI can break or get stuck leading someone to believe a unloaded pistol is loaded or vise versa. Best practice is to physically and visually check the chamber when possible.
Yup. The LCI’s visual and tactile difference between loaded and unloaded is minimal, and will vary by rim dimensions and tolerances. It’s indistinct enough that many users who carry the gun because they have to won’t recognize the difference. The LCI is almost useless, mostly just checking boxes to meet requirements. A press check is a much more definitive “always” method, and can provide tactile feedback when dark or light discipline is required.
When first released, I remember owners swapping out the LCI extractors for the older.
The odds are greater that a slide slowly ridden forward will not fully rechamber the cartridge than the pistol failing to feed the cartridge. If the loaded chamber indicator isn’t enough to convince someone that there’s a cartridge in there, then a drop of the magazine to see how many cartridges are left is an easy secondary confirmation.
So in near or total darkness, how can you tell how many rounds remain in the magazine?
In near or total darkness you also can’t see in the chamber when retracting the slide to peek, so how would that be better than looking at the holes in the magazine? I think that if you’re skill set or your confidence in your pistol is such that you don’t trust you’ve loaded it and you don’t trust the tactile loaded chamber indicator, then you really shouldn’t handle a pistol in the dark.
Chamber check at night:
Step 1: Partially retract slide.
Step 2: Insert finger into where there is supposed to be a cartridge.
Step 2a: If you feel the breach of the barrel, your pistol is not loaded.
Step 2b: If you feel a cartridge case, your pistol is loaded.
Step 3: Return slide to battery.
Why are you loading in the dark? I can’t foresee that being a common situation. In addition, if a press check is so crucial, why does no one practice a press check after a reload? It would stand to reason that ensuring your pistol is loaded might be most important during use, and yet no one press checks after a reload, or between each shot for that matter. So if you trust your gun to load, fire, extract, eject, from first round to last during use, why wouldn’t you trust it during an admin load??
Because it’s dark for (on average) half the day, everywhere.
I can’t foresee that being a common situation.
Yeah, 50% of the time is pretty uncommon. I can’t remember the last time it got dark out.
In addition, if a press check is so crucial, why does no one practice a press check after a reload? It would stand to reason that ensuring your pistol is loaded might be most important during use, and yet no one press checks after a reload,
You need to get out more. I see people perform presschecks all the time after performing drills, including during reloads. It’s like a “tactical” reload: You do it when time and opportunity presents itself.
So if you trust your gun to load, fire, extract, eject, from first round to last during use,
If you trust your gun to never fail from first round to last round over thousands or tens of thousands of rounds, you need to shoot more.
why wouldn’t you trust it during an admin load??
It’s an admin load and you obviously don’t spend much time dealing with real people in the real world where people fail to seat magazines all the damned time, yank their charging handle or rack their slide, and chamber empty air.
People ride slide locks, followers and columns of ammunition get stuck, springs break, magazines fail, ammunition manufacturers dump less powder in some cartridges, and shit just happens.
The two loudest noises in the world are a bang when you expect a click and a click when you expect a bang and a two-second chamber check can prevent you from experiencing either.
Best post I’ve read in awhile.
All of MountainRavens points aside, if you have to learn one method to clear/safe or verify loaded, isn’t it easier to learn something that works day or night?
My first 2 or 3 day Defensive Handgun class we learned 1 method that worked day or night. For example, to clear/safe the pistol, remove mag. Rack 3 times. Pinky in mag hole, check for mag. Pinky on breach face for round hung up, and then into chamber to clear. Done. Weapon is safe day or night.
I don’t want my weapon “safe” If my weapon is safe it’s holstered, otherwise …
I honestly don’t mean to be an asshole here, check the chamber anyway you like, revolve the situation to your satisfaction, holster or shoot the weapon day or night. When it comes to methods, place your bets.
Let me explain it again.
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Why are you performing an admin reload in the dark? Why is the firearm not already loaded? Why is it necessary to load without the use of artificial light? The uncommon part is why you’re loading your pistol(or rifle) in the dark with the need to remain “dark”.
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Doing a press check after a drill is not what I was referring to, although it is just as stupid. What I’m asking is why no one press checks between shots, or why no one press checks after a reload during a gunfight? I’ve linked a few videos below with MIL and LEO’s in gunfights, and not one person does a press check after a reload… Strange. I’ve also linked some training vids from former SF folks and they also don’t press check nor discuss it…Strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Yfj24jpWU&t=364s Start at 6:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhoP161gpWM&t=485s Start at 1:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOvhO9Ki0Uw Start at 0:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KKSHsZt6Lg Watch the whole video, several reloads, not one press check.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CgwTzC79A Start at 2:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6zdT1n6xq4 Start at 0:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_fF3id2XAM Watch it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3hdFteZonc Watch it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DUT7tJI2So Here’s one with a rifle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg6vl3VUQb4 Watch it all
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I trust my firearms to work as intended, because I trust the engineering that went into them. Do I practice IA drills and RA drills? Absolutely. Do I think my pistol or rifle will somehow not load as designed unless I work the action(possibly inducing a stoppage) to look/feel for brass? NO. Does it make sense to press check here and there, but not every time I load or shoot? NO. Doing so is akin to wearing your seatbelt only when you think it’s dangerous to drive. Or to only carry your gun when you think you’re going to be in a dangerous area.
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All loads are administrative. Loading isn’t putting bullets on target, therefore it isn’t a martial skill. It is an administrative skill that SUPPORTS the martial skill of putting bullets on target. Failing to seat a magazine is not corrected by doing a press check. Unseated magazines are prevented by loading properly, with many repetitions in training and practice. If your gun fails to fire do you not TAP RACK?? That solves most problems, and it doesn’t involve a press check, why? If press checks are so important then you should do one after you’ve executed your IA (TAP RACK) should you not?
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Not sure how riding the slide catch has anything to do with reloading? I will address it though. Regardless of slide position, a reload should involve using the slide to chamber a round. Use of the slide every time a magazine is inserted will ensure a round is chambered.
Magazines can fail, that is partially on the user to monitor and repair or replace as needed. Springs break, rarely. Not a lot you can do to prevent it. If you’re trying to say that the mag spring could fail just as you load your pistol; I will say that is fantasyland “what if” paranoia that serves only to sell your talking point, not reflect reality.
The whole “two loudest sounds” bullshit is so over played and cliche. Preventing a NEGLIGENT discharge is accomplished by not pointing a firearm at anything you are not comfortable with destroying and KEEPING YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU’VE MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO FIRE. Preventing an unloaded chamber situation is accomplished by properly loading your firearm and practicing that skill repeatedly. Again, I reference the handful of videos I linked, some of which show MIL or LE folks IN A GUNFIGHT and not one executes a press check…
My only experience with the French armed forces was sharing a bottle of wine with a french army veteran and his friends in a cafe while I was visiting Paris with my wife. He was quite friendly, even more so when I identified myself as a USAF veteran. The wine was excellent as well!
Yep, visually check always.
How do you visually check in the dark??
Very carefully
No body has a flashlight anymore?