Are these really that good? Are they worth the extra money? What do you guys think about POF?
Thanks
Everybody has their own opinion, if you think the concept (of piston rifles) is sound, then buy it. There is a very good reason for the concept, thats why there is so many in production.
wait for the colt
The HK416 is the best we’ve tried, followed closely by the LWRC.
what is the latest best estimate on the release date for the l.e. 1020?
thanks.
What is the “LWRC”???
I only knew of the Hk416, and the POF. Never heard of the LWRC…
Let us know…
Also, where does the info on a Colt piston rifle come from, and how long have they been talking about it???
Leitner-Wise Rifle Company.
Hello I just dont know alot about them the HK416 looks great(FutureWeapons) but im guessing it will be along time before a civilian version is available? POF is here in town I should probably visit them and see what makes the piston upper tick.
Thanks
Colt developed a Piston AR back in the late 60s but Uncle Sugar resolved the issues with dirty powder and extraction so it never went any further. HK revived the idea, POF has brought to the people, LWRC have produced a very high quality version, and Colt is now selling one. I have shot the POF and the LWRC. Both are excellent shooters and the ones I have fired have been reliable. The two POF uppers that I have owned, both SBRs, have fired over 3,000 rounds without cleaning and produced near MOA groups. Those that I know that have used the HK varient like alot. I haven’t fired nor know anyone who has fired the Colt. I got a good look and spoke with a Colt Rep at SHOT. It looks like a real solid system.
S/F
Interesting, Doc… Did you shoot the LWRC much suppressed? I had one, sold it and do not miss it at all. My observation is that it extracted too early in the firing cycle so that the chamber actually got dirty faster and started causing fte’s at a much lower round count than an equivalent direct impingement gun. The crud in a D.I. gun comes from the gas tube, whereas the crud in my LWRC came straight back from the bore, which was still under pressure when the bolt unlocked, especially when using a suppressor.
So the bolt/carrier looked cleaner, but the gun was more prone to and sensitive to a dirty chamber.
But, I admit I was only around 3 or 4 of them for any length of time and only owned one. The 10.5" chrome-lined LWRC guns seemed to be much less prone to fte’s than longer barrels and/or stainless chambers.
Realistically I don’t think the average person who takes decent care of their weapons will notice the difference. The largest advantages seem to come for those who intend to use shorter length barrels and/ or intend to use a suppressor. Either way you can get a “nicer” DI rifle for the same or less money. You can get really customized DI rifle for the priced of a nicely equipped GP one. It isn’t really about which is better. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. I think the disadvantages of DI are blown out of proportion by the GP people and vice versa.
*I personally had a LW rifle on order from the group buy on the “other site.” That said I cancelled my order mostly because of customer service or lack of I should say. That’s not to say the situation hadn’t improved now or that a weapon can’t be procured quickly at this time. I think I have a much “better” and “trusted” rifle now (custom Noveske barrel build) for the same money I would have spent on a “basic” GP rifle.
I just got back from Ken Elmore’s LEO Colt AR-15,M16,M4 Armorer’s Course. I asked him specifically when Colt was going to be selling one. He said no time soon (if ever).
So, if you know where I can pick up a Colt piston AR please share the info.
…I hope I didn’t come across like an ass I just want one in a BAAAADDD way!
For most of us, I think that the pistol AR is a solution looking for a problem. People always tell me that they run more reliably after high round counts because they don’t “shit where they eat”. I’ve gone nearly 2k rounds through my Colts before cleaning and never had a problem with reliability. If I am ever in a situation where I need to shoot 2k rounds without cleaning, I’m most likely screwed already.
As to the Colt offering, I spent some time talking to a Colt rep at SHOT about this very thing. He said they were still recovering from the egg on their face from promisses they made at SHOT 2006 and were not making any more promises as to release date. He did say that a traditional gas system with the integrated rail forend would be released first, followed by the piston system in the same upper to follow. Take that for whatever it’s worth.
Good info Rob S,
Thanks for sharing. I absolutely respect the fact that Colt isn’t going to put out a BS release date, like so many other companies are doing these days… I do sure wish Colt would get on it though. That would be the shiznit… I’m quite interested in the integral rail upper too…
I have no dog in this fight. The gas piston design is something I’m definately interested in. I have only witnessed a small sampleing from one company, but I was not impressed. Others have experienced simular results (lack of reliability):
getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/2921093491?r=6641085491#6641085491
Semper Fi,
Jeff
[b]DocGKR,
The HK416 is not currently avalible to Individual Officers. Thus I've been looking at the LWRC, but haven't been able to find much info on this system (ie. people who have used it over a period of time, or have run it hard (like in a class) over a short period of time with a high round count).
Any additional info you could provide on the LWRC system would be greatly appriciated.[/b]
Take care and stay safe,
Jeff
Can you repost? Thanks.
Jeff,
I’ve got two LWRC Carbines now and have not had an issue related to the weapon itself with either of them. Give me a call when you get a chance and I’ll tell you what I know.
Stephen
I agree that the piston guns may be an answer to a question that few have asked…
I have seen a number of 416’s put a bunch of rounds downrange and the reliability is impressive.
Intrinsic accuracy may not be, but realistic accuracy is probably sufficient.
Put one next to a Noveske or Larue upper and the intrinsic accuracy of the latter 2 will be outstanding, the former less so but certainly no worse than M1, M14 or other countries service rifles. It will do, and do well.
However, it is an HK, which means little or just arrogant customer service.
Interesting that for what is believed to be a “high end” gun, they chose to go cheap with and aftermarket sized receiver extension.
The POF guns were interesting. Freddie Blish had one that went through at least 4 of my classes as well as several others, and never an issue.
However, several others i have seen ran less well.
I have seen one LW in class (see ashooter’s post) and it was unimpressive.
Their shenanigan’s on TOS were typical of the company at that time, but having heard the same brand of swill from them at Modern Day Marine and other shows- and even though the “hipfiredgun” was let go, my confidence in the company and the guns is low.
There are a lot of do’s and don’ts and wants and whys when it comes to the piston market. Many people say it a answer to a question that was never asked. Well, to tell the truth, the question was asked and this is where the drive in our industry started. The Army I believe started a enhanced M4 program or RFI a couple years ago, and the main question would to increase the durability and reliability of the current systems in use. Many company’s were scared to go out of the box with a new design or even more frightened to dig out one of their old designs and make it current. Then after a few looks at some early systems and some inside the military said yes and some said no, then inter military politics got involved.
Plan and simple, Piston Systems DO increase Chamber Fowling. Piston Systems WILL run longer without cleaning. Piston Systems Do increase the mean number of rounds before replacement parts. No one is asking operators or LE/Commercial shooters to STOP cleaning there guns just because they are shooting a piston gun, the industry is just saying you can increase the life span of your weapon and may keep it running longer in harder situations. Will most people see these types of situations, probably not, but who is to say that the weapons system should not be prepared for that.
Due to my position I can not really say what I think is better than anyone and what I think about HK416, LWRC, POF-USA, Colt or anyone else. I have shot most of the above and many offer great qualities. But I will say, don’t believe everything you read on the error-net. No matter what many people say, someone has someone’s hand in there pocket. Many times the best products are not put forth or recommended by people, they just push what makes them money or gets them free shuag. If you do not see it for yourself, or come from a very trusted source, wait and get some good research done and then make your departments or your own purchase.