I used to be strictly an AR and Glock guy but there’s so much versatility out there in other platforms. (Plus some are just nostalgic)
Currently pending a few stamps and one final Aimpoint micro to finish the PCC lineup but I’ve got a few B&Ts, a PS90, and others. The goal with these weapons was to be able to bring more firepower with me than just a handgun but still in a bag small enough not to raise eyebrows. (Except the HK SP5. That’s just neat.)
It’s pretty satisfying being able to fit 75 rounds of 9mm and an NV capable carbine into something smaller than a laptop bag. The expense needed to buy a gun is way easier to justify when you are able to bring it with you wherever you go rather than a bunch of ARs that live in the safe 24/7.
I know this is an AR centric site, but I’m willing to bet most of us carry handguns on a day to day basis and almost all of us keep a gun near the bed for uh-ohs.
Pistol calibers generally don’t perform well against armor (save for the 5.7 if you wanna spend $10, each for SS190) but the PCC’s job isn’t to replace an AR - it’s to supplement a handgun. The B&T APC9k for example is only slightly bigger than a G34. A bit too big to actually conceal on your body (although ridiculous, it’s possible) but even a tiny, tiny bag will conceal it well. The level of accuracy and capability 3 points of contact and a T1 have over a handgun (even with an RMR) is insane. Imagine 100% faster split times while being able to hit targets half as big. The PS90 is so ergonomic it can be fired one handed, and I’m sure once the stamp gets back it will only be even more balanced with the shorter barrel.
I guess my point is that lately I’ve found myself shifting away from the up armored days of GWOT into more of a grey man. Unfortunately, the AR platform doesn’t really lend itself to this kind of living. Even a 10.5” AR with a LAW folder (which cannot be fired folded and is quite loud) is still pretty big.
Couple benefits to me Euro;
We can legally carry the “pistol” variants in vehicles hot.
Our local dufus range invariably has the “rifle” range tied up. It’s impossible to get in carbine drills/run and gun while this is happening.
The PCCs, being handgun caliber, makes it possible to practice on the spare pistol range which is never used.
The majority use AR9s, which doubles down as trigger time with the 5.56 guns.
Eh, I have a PCC for bag duty (CZ Evo that I had the barrel cut down to Micro length), but ultimately, I think that a small .300 BLK with a folding stock would be a far better choice. With a Rattler, you have a rifle about the same size as an MP5K-PDW, but far more capable ballistically. A LAW folder paired with a 5.5" barreled .300 BLK AR would also be of similar size.
The spec sheet says that a P90 is 19.88”; for comparison:
[ul]
[li]SCAR 16 CQC is 21" folded[/li][li]MK18 with a LAW is 20.75" folded[/li][li]DDM4 PDW is 20.75" collapsed[/li][li]Q Honey Badger is 20" collapsed[/li][li]H&K G36C is 19.69" folded[/li][li]Krink folded is 19.375"[/li][li]Maxim Defense PDX is 18.75" collapsed[/li][li]Robinson Arms XCR-L Micro is 18" folded[/li][li]H&K MP7 is 16.3" collapsed[/li][li]SIG Rattler is 16" folded[/li][li]H&K MP5K-PDW is 14.53" folded[/li][li]B&T APC9 K is 12.7" folded[/li][li]B&T MP9 is 11.9"[/li][li]Flux Defense MP17 is 10.75" collapsed[/li][li]B&T USW-G17 is 10.67" folded[/li][li]B&T USW-A1 is 10.12" folded[/li][/ul]
I think that anything smaller than 20" is fine, as you can fit that in a normal-sized backpack or briefcase. I also don’t see much use in being able to shoot a firearm with the stock folded, outside of some really niche close-in protection stuff, which is not an issue for me; deployment would be rough either way.
But seriously. Been thinking that same exact thing. Something small, easily concealable in a avg back pack and a little more substantial than a G19.
I have a SBR AK but rifle and mags weigh a ton. Was thinking of a AR uner 10inch but apparently those are incredibly loud. Been looking at a Stribog 9mm
Recoil. Most blowback 9mm’s are kinda harsh, and more so the more usefully small they are.
Controls and manual of arms. Many have controls that seem an afterthought or are at least different enough to require dedicated training.
Nobody knows how long the brace honeymoon will last. Not everyone wants to or can get stamps, and a stamped gun changes the loaded pistol example above and complicates travel, even more for people who live near a State border.
That said I’m interested in seeing if the 5.7 Gold Dot makes the PS90 more interesting, and am also in a bit of a mental struggle between what seems like a more practical B&T vs the H&K (or clone) I’ve always wanted for fun.
A 10mm MP-5 would rock. Pittsburgh was one of the last major PD’s to dump 9mm MP-5’s, in favor of the AR carbine, because of their ineffectiveness against barriers. Here’s the day THAT ended.
It was a Saturday morning - I was sitting right here at my home office computer, watching it unfold on local TV. I SAW a cop come running up, with a CASE of ammo, during the standoff. Cops put 993 rds. of 9mm into the brick house, with NO effect.
In fact, the badguy was wounded in the INITIAL exchange between he & the officers at the door. And while everyone went apepoopy over the fact he had a WASR, he killed all 3 cops with the Savage 12 gauge (friend of mine was then, and is now a retired, Vice Lt. with Pittsburgh PD and told me this - THAT factoid didn’t come out 'til the trial).
Do I plan on frontal assaulting any holed-up badguys any time soon? Nope. Do I live in an old steel-framed, brick house? YES. Yes I do. So am I worried about over-penetration by 5.56 rounds inside my house? Nope.
9mm MP-5’s & Uzi’s looked AWESOME in “Under Siege.” I think I’ll leave them there. In 1992.
Nobody here disagrees with you about the ineffectiveness of 9mm vs 5.56.
But I’m gonna go out on a limb that you don’t carry a 5.56mm pistol into shops and restaurants with you for EDC. Why not?
A 9mm PCC in my hand at a grocery store is a lot more useful when some ****ed up rich white kid wants to blow people away than a 9mm handgun that holds 7 rounds or an AR15 that’s miles away in a safe.
Don’t be daft. The fact that you are referring to uzis and MP5s shows you’ve been out of the game since 1992. A 9mm PCC isn’t a replacement to an AR. It fills a role in between a handgun you conceal on your body and when you can bring a real rifle someplace.
Just kidding. Pistol caliber guns are good fun. We use them as a inexpensive training analogs that don’t tear up our steel as quickly. And as range toys.
I am a big lover of small PCC, as most people here know.
I don’t think a super small 300blk is better than a small PCC. Size of magazines of PCC, are easier to carry, over full sized rifle mags. Muzzle blast of super sonic 300blk V muzzle blast of 9mm. If you are talking subs in the 300blk, then you might as well carry a 9mm.
I have been approached to set up security on 2 different projects that have similar issues. So to solve these issues, I will have to budget for both PCCs and real rifles. It isn’t one or the other, it is mission driven.
If I went with a PCC I’d want to explore something a little more “upscale” caliber-wise than 9mm. Maybe 10mm, actually would prefer a 357Sig but nobody makes such a beast other than one-offs. Maybe .45ACP.
I now own 2 GHM9Cs with glock lowers. They are sooooo much fun and have really cut down on training costs between shooting 9mm and 556 when working up close and transition drills. Plus, its way quieter at night and I have found myself training more with my NV now than I ever did with my 556 and 30 calibre guns. Much less neighbor hate as well.
I don’t get the appeal of PCC; back when they started to become the range in 2015 or so, I figured it would last a year at most and be over. I guess I was wrong. Neutered sub-guns is how they’ve always come off to me, and I still tend to think that way. If you’re carrying it to have something bigger than a pistol, cool, but for about the same size (or slightly bigger) you can have an SBR or pistol in 5.56/.300BLK. If you’re already carrying your weapon in a bag, I’d think you’d want to have the most potent weapon in the bag as possible, not what amounts to an oversized pistol.
On the subject of carrying a PCC around, how many owners EDC one? Not just in a vehicle (because that same argument works just as well for any rifle or intermediate options too) but on them constantly? I’d be willing to be that the number is extremely small, smaller even than the percentage of CCW permit/license holders that actually EDC. If that’s the case, the benefits of being able to carry one concealed in a bag or briefcase is greatly diminished by the practicality of doing so.
To each their own, though. I’m not the fount of all firearms knowledge in the universe and I know it, and if it makes sense to you, cool. I’m the guy that likes Cold War battle rifles and SCARs, so what do I know?
Because overall size and weight. I have and use an old school bag. Nothing tactical, no molle or camo no 100 different hidden pockets, no paracord…etc. I’ve been using it for 20 years for everything from a gym bag to a range bag. It’s not going to fit a 10.5in AR unless broken down. Anything shorter in 556 and hearing protection is a must. 300blk is expensive. I’m finding almost a dollar a round. A 9mm pcc can be very short and light. Throw it in a back pack and no one knows it’s there. As far as taking it with me … that’s going to depend on where I’m going and what the area is like. Not taking it to the local 7-11.
The only PPC I’m really interested in is the CMMG Banshee set up for Glock mags. But I’m still not sure when I would actually be carrying it with me, and the Banshee’s footprint is still kinda big.
That sounds really good in theory but are you really going to sling up a backpack everywhere you go just to carry something for an engagement that you have about a .000001% chance to be in?
If so, then rock on…For me, they are in the same category as a truck gun where guys think they’ll run out to the parking lot to re-engage an active shooter.
I’m not saying it can’t fill a niche roll or aren’t a fun platform, especially suppressed. But I don’t see it replacing an edc handgun (mine carries 15+1 rds with a 17rd reload btw) on a daily basis.
If you carry it, it makes sense.
I wouldnt. As I said in another thread, my pistol skills are way ahead of rifle skills, so it makes no sense for me to go to a 9mm long gun, unless its FA.
Silenced 9mm FA is a hell of a lot of fun, I can only imagine how much better it would be with NV, but havent got into it yet… maybe in a couple years.