I do not have ready access to outdoor ranges. However, there are several indoor ranges near me and one about a mile from my work. The only indoor range that allowed the use of rifles, in my area, closed about 18 months ago.
So, while I am contemplating which AR to buy, perhaps it would be more useful/functional/practical, to get a pistol caliber carbine first.
So, this is not a “which one to buy” thread, but rather a more general - “Are any of the pistol caliber carbines with the trouble/money?” thread. (However, if you want to make a suggestion to me on which one, if any, to buy, I would appreciate your impute.)
I have done a lot of reading on this topic, and mostly people just get into a discussion about one brand being better than the other, not the more global question of are any of them worth buying? It appears to me that the price range goes from $400.00 to about $2,800.00, so there must be a pretty big spread in either quality/reputation/demand or something to justify that wide variation.
6450 is tough to beat.
There are a lot of options but the pistol caliber carbines seem to have less margin than the rifle calibers. Therefore there is not volume and some manufacturers have left the market I.e., Spikes. Supposedly Rock River is entering, but I have yet to see one.
I spent most of last year bouncing between different PCCs, trying to find something that worked for exactly the same reason you mention – indoor ranges that did not allow shooting of rifle cartridges.
After buying and selling a HiPoint 995, a Beretta CX4, and a CMMG 9mm AR, I ultimately bucked up and paid the extra $$ to get a Turkish license-built HK-94/MP5 clone. It hurt when I bought it (and paid for all the ridiculous 922r parts), but ultimately it turned out to be exactly the right answer.
All of the other blowback designs were just not a fun shooting experience. The CX4 had the worst cheek slap of all of them, but to some extent they all had heavier recoil than the 9mm cartridge warranted. When I shot the delayed blowback of the MP5 design, it was like the heavens cracked open and a ray of light came shining down and the angels sang.
I love, love, love, love the MKE AT-94. Fun. As. Hell. Next to the M1 Carbine, the most fun firearm I own.
It is way more expensive than it should be compared to other PCCs, but IMHO it is the single best answer to the question.
If you want to keep the same manual of arms as your 5.56mm AR, get a 6951 9mm AR, SBR it and add a can. If you are just going for something fun, an mp5K-pdw or B&T TP9 SBR would be cool. The B&T APC in 9mm and 45 will also be imported, but by the time these are here the range we were discussing by email will likely be open and offer an indoor 100m rifle range.
I went through a phase as well. I saw the sig MPX last year at SHOT and wanted a 9mm carbine. I bought a Thureon Defense and Marlin Camp Carbine. They just didn’t do it for me. Gas blowback can burn the eyes a bit.
I’m still digging the MPX and may pick it up in pistol form. The side folding “arm brace” feels pretty good.
As far as ARs go, there are various 9mm AR carbines. Colt, Rock River, CMMG, and JP Enterprises make complete rifles while a few companies such as Double Diamond and Lone Wolf make lowers, and the aforementioned two companies make Glock magazine lowers. The JP rifle is also a Glock magazine lower.
The CX-4 is also out there.
The Turkish AT-94 guns as mentioned above are also an (expensive) possibility. Atlantic Arms is also advertising HKs under their house brand, dunno how the quality is.
Then there is oddball stuff like the MechTech carbine system for Glocks and 1911s and the Just Right Carbine (which is getting mixed reviews)
There are also Uzis, too.
Personally I would love a good MP-5 type gun and would accept a 9mm AR that was done well. Could even live with an Uzi. Don’t know about the rest…
9mm long guns should be short and quiet, and I would recommend only a HK or license-built MP5 or a properly constructed 9mm AR.
Semi auto Uzis… like semi auto MACs only work if you’ve got that 80’s nostalgia emotion thing going. Otherwise they just flat out suck and should only be full auto.
The MPX you will wait for for years and SIG will screw it up.
The Scorpion EVO is never coming.
The Brügger & Thomet TP9 is meh.
The 9mm converted Tavor is available now, but it’s a bullpup.
If you’re not wanting to go “all in” with the cost of owning an HK or MKE (I just paid a hefty premium for being late to the K-gun game), I would say definitely SBR your AR, put on a 9mm upper, and when the time comes to hit the outdoor range, replace it with the upper of your choice.
The thing about the MPX that annoys me…is it looks like they are basically reinventing the wheel with what is essentially a slightly changed pistol cal AR that will feed from proprietary mags…and I heard they plan to intro it at the $2k price range which is ridiculous for what it looks like you are getting.
The tavor with conversion kit is going to run you in the range of $2500 ($1700 for the rifle, $800 for the conversion kit). Pretty steep.
The thing about the Sig for me is that they missed the sub gun era entirely, and it’s got no provenance to carry it beyond its caliber limitations. I think the MP5 is still the reference standard in this category, but a 9mm AR may be more practical (and certainly less expensive) for most people. I like Uzi’s, too, but without the happy switch it’s not exactly gazelle like in it’s gracefulness.
what’s the rifle for (range, HD, …)?
how much have you got to spend?
are you set on an AR or can the pcc be “other”
do you have an AR at all yet or will the PCC be your first?
As mentioned already, most direct and efficient way to deal with this is to buy whatever AR .223 tickles your fancy, then buy a .22lr conversion kit for it.
or buy a dedicated .22lr upper. more money, but better accuracy and perhaps reliability.
if you just like PCC’s for whatever reason (and I do), check out JP Rifles new gmr12: http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.13_GMR.php
takes glock mags, so cost and availability will not be an issue.
brass/copper 9mm can be easily had for 28cpr these days.
To directly answer your question, my franken gun DDLES glock lower/cmmg uppper/PSA parts kit has been worth it. much lower ammo costs and i already have a ton of 9mm glock mags. and while not nearly as effective as .223, i don’t feel under armed with it by the bedside here in suburbia.
My solution after trying the CMMG 22LR drop in bolt thing was as follows.
(1) DDLES Colt Pattern 9MM lower with YHM upper. Runs like a machine, at about 1100 RDS, cleaned it once, only malfunction was after the first shot when I hadn’t seated the magazine properly.
(2) S&W MP-15/22. Runs great as long as you take your time to load the magazines and ensure the round stagger properly. When mine is cleaned and lubed it will even cycle on subsonics / suppressed for about a hundred rounds before the carbon builds up enough friction to slow the bolt down.
Proper MP-5 / clone would be awesome but for the price I’ll stick with my 9MM AR SBR / Suppressed. But if you have the coin for the weapon and mags, go for it.
Excellent advice. The semiauto UZI is great for display, but overly heavy and crude as a semiauto carbine. I totally agree with your assessment that UZIs should be fullauto. My vector fullsize UZI has never been fired semiauto.
My choice for a pistol caliber carbine is HK 9x series followed by AR, SBRd and with a suppressor.
In order of what I like best for what I’ve owned:
My mke 94k is still my favorite
Then the fill size 94p
For less money my colt 9mm has run perfectly and is very fun too
I do love my mini uzi and it runs and runs, but it is only in semi and is heavy
