They can be though. I have a “Colt M16” and a “Colt AR-15” (says so right on the side, as well as the paperwork), both are factory guns and they are very different. They both descend from the same lineage. It is also possible to have a “Colt AR-15” and a “Colt M16”, and they are the same identical gun.
The problem is the terms are used so loosely by both the MFG that they have lost some meaning.
By that reasoning, then what is a M16 that also says AR-15 on the side of it?
How is an M16 “very different” than an AR-15? An AR-15 is not descended from anything. It is an all encompassing term, an umbrella, not a specific model.
Most “M16s” that people own are not M16s, they are commerial/export versions or SP1 conversions. It doesn’t matter what it says on the side of the lower or the paperwork.
Like I said, the guns on Colt’s military website are not M16s or M4s even though they say that on the side of the lower. The only reason why they say that is advertising. An M16 is not a Colt specific gun. It is a US military designation.
I just call them rifles and carbines.
According to http://www.colt.com/law/legal.asp , Colt Defense LLC has registered the following trademarks or service marks with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office: AR-15, HBAR, MATCH TARGET, COMMANDO, CAR, M16, M203, XM177E2. Colt Defense LLC has rights under a licensing agreement with New Colt Holding Corporation and Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC to the following trademarks or service marks: COLT, COLT (Stylized C), NONE (Rampant Colt Design), COLT AR-15, COLT AR-15 AND DESIGN. Registered with the European Union are: COLT M4, COLT M16, COLT M203.
So not only all M4s, but also all AR-15s and M16s, either come from Colt or from somebody who pays royalties to Colt for licensing their trademark. You can build something that resembles an M4, M16, or AR-15, but you have to call it something else, sort of like “Gnarnia” in Epic Movie.
Yes, I once thought this was supremely important myself. I also used to get quite irate when people called MP38/40 submachine guns “Schmeissers” or AKMs “AK-47s” or Tec-9s “Uzis” or M1911 pistols “.45s” or single-shot shotguns “single-barrels” or any lever-action rifles “.30-30s” or didn’t know that .38s are really .357s or didn’t know that Dirty Harry admitted to loading his .44 Magnum with .44 Specials or pronounced “Garand” to rhyme with LeGrand instead of Errand.
Then I entered the 10th grade. I also have discovered that time on the range is better spent looking at my front sight instead of everybody else’s selector markings.
I refer to my S&W M&P-15 as an M4gery around my Army friends, which always gets them to laughing hysterically. I explain that it’s like an M4 except for no full-auto and a slightly longer barrel. Few non-gun people outside the military have any idea what an M4 is, because it’s not a household word like M16 or AK47 or .45 even Schmeisser.
In common usage, at least among those of us old enough to remember when Colt wasn’t a hostage to politics and didn’t call everything a Sporter or Target or Match rifle, M16 means a select or burst fire rifle because that’s what the Army called it, and AR-15 means a semiauto only rifle meant for civilian sale because that’s what Colt called it, even if the M16 is marked AR-15 and built by Harrington & Richardson.
And now, like all of you need to do instead of arguing about ridiculous crap like what is an M4, M16, or AR-15, I’m going out to actually train with my, uhh, whatever the thing is in the trunk that eats up all my 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Remington ammo.
[wild applause]
Well said, HolyRoller.
Chief
You don’t think I’ve ever seen this before. :rolleyes:
So not only all M4s, but also all AR-15s and M16s, either come from Colt or from somebody who pays royalties to Colt for licensing their trademark. You can build something that resembles an M4, M16, or AR-15, but you have to call it something else, sort of like “Gnarnia” in Epic Movie.
The phrase “M16A1” or “M4” is not a trademark of any company. It is a US military designation.
Yes, I once thought this was supremely important myself. I also used to get quite irate when people called MP38/40 submachine guns “Schmeissers” or AKMs “AK-47s” or Tec-9s “Uzis”
An AKM and an AK47 are different variations of the same gun.
A Tec 9 is not in any way related to an UZI.
In common usage, … M16 means a select or burst fire rifle because that’s what the Army called it, and AR-15 means a semiauto only rifle meant for civilian sale because that’s what Colt called it,
I never argued otherwise if talking about common usage or slang..
You are confusing the fact that both the DOD and Colt lawfully and correctly use the “M16” term. Colt has a trademark on the terms “AR-15”, “M16”, so yes they are “AR-15”, " M16". Thus you need to specify which entity you mean. If Chevy decides to make a truck and call it “M16”, then it IS an M16. The “AR-15” below is a descendant of the Colt “M16”, which is a descendent of the original “Armalite AR-15”.
Wow, thanks, ArmyChief. I try to stay on the good side of all warrant officers, as I learned from the time I tried to steal a CWO-4’s girlfriend. That did not turn out well.
Scott, I know a Tec-9 is in no way related to an Uzi (also a registered trademark), which is why I got so annoyed when people called it an Uzi. Yes, an AK-47 and an AKM are two models of the same gun, but an AKM is not an AK-47, there are differences, and that’s why I got so annoyed when people called an AKM, Chinese Type 56, Yugo M70, etc. etc. an AK-47. But it’s not as important to call things exactly the right designation as it is to learn to hit with them and win fights.
Time spent worrying about model numbers is time you’re not on the range. In the time you spent writing that post, I did dryfire drills, standing to kneeling at 50 and headshots at 25, as part of working toward passing the MEU(SOC) M4 qual. Time I’m spending writing this is time I’m not getting to the gym so I can go standing-kneeling-prone without having an asthma attack. Not to mention time not doing anything that makes money so I can live-fire more.
How about this: M16, M4, M203 are BOTH military AND Colt designations, and now let’s step away from the keyboard and go do something that makes us into the fearsome warriors that all free men should be.
Well, I’m a CW4, but my wife won’t let me have a girlfriend, so you’ve nothing to fear on my account. 
Chief
I’m not confused about anything.
The AR-15 in that ad is the beginning of Colts line of semi auto AR-15s based of the original Armalite AR-15.
Ok :rolleyes:
does that poor guy have his thumb stuck in the front sight
I don’t really like calling anything an M4, it’s like calling a WASR 10 an AK47; it’s slang and lacks description. I generally use the barrel length as an indicator of what gun I’m talking about, (ie a 14.5, a 16, or a 20 “incher”) with “AR” used as something of a suffix. (like “Hey I saw this 20 inch AR, and man was that thing unwieldy!”) I like this especially so since the variety of accessories used in the civilian shooters world means that no gun really seems to be an “exact” M4.
However, if I must speak in broad generalities (I hate doing that) then I use the term “AR 15”. I think this term should be used to describe the whole family of weapons, as M16 is a govt. weapon made with a specific set of requirements that many times are not applicable to civilian rifles with varying accessories, barrel lengths, etc. The same can be said for the term “M4”. While AR 15 is a Colt icon, and one could argue that like the terms m16, and M4, it is a specific product, I find the term should apply to all weapons of the Stoner DI platform, since it has become part of the lexicon of civilian gun owners, and clarifies that the weapon in question is a Stoner DI weapon, but also not a military issued weapon.
Why sure. I don’t really have a problem with that. I think of M-4 as a type/or stle of weapon platform.
For those that know black rifles, I generally refer to my guns as “AR’s” which is a pretty straightforward and comfortable usage. For my other friends and the uninitiated (non-gun people), I generally refer to them generally as M-16’s as they most likely wouldn’t know what an AR-15 is. This is usually in response to “What kinda guns do you own?” Most people seem to know what an M-16 looks like.
Of course it’s wrong, but they don’t know the difference!
Regardless of what Colt or some of its fans think, the designation M4 did not, does not, and will never belong to Colt. It belongs to the US Department of Defense.
Therefore I will call anything that looks like an M4 so. Hell, I’d do it even if Colt had a trademark, copyright, and patent on the name.
This thread really needs to be moved to TOS…
It’s reached maximum stupidity.
Concur.
I tried to take the thinking-man’s approach early on, but I think the original question been asked, answered, and to beaten an unrecognizable state.
Clearly, there are a couple of divergent schools of thought here. That said, who really cares to split hairs any more? I certainly don’t.
Call your (fill in the blank) whatever it says it is in the owner’s manual it came with. That ought to do nicely.
Chief