Okay to call a non Colt AR-15 an M4?

This may be a stupid question. This may have even been discussed before. If it has, I hate to beat a dead horse. Its all a matter of opinion I’m sure. I know my opinion on it, but I want to hear other peoples opinions.

I understand fully the difference between an AR-15, an M16 and an M4. I know that a true M16 or M4 are only made by Colt, are select fire, and have either a 20" (M16) or 14.5" (M4) barrel. I also know that an AR-15 is a pretty general term for any M16 or M4 type rifle made available to civilians, in a semi-auto configuration.

Now, my question is, do you consider it okay to refer to an AR-15, setup like an M4, as an “M4”, or is it best to call it an AR-15 to avoid confusion, and to not get flamed by gun gurus who are in the mood to prove someone wrong? By being “setup like an M4” I mean with an M4 stock, and a 16" barrel or shorter. I guess the same could go for an M16. Would it be okay to call an AR-15 with a 20" barrel and a fixed stock an M16?

I don’t like to pretend I have something I don’t, but calling my rifle an M4 to someone who has never seen it before gives them a pretty good idea of what it looks like without having to describe it. And after all, the only notable differences are its not made by Colt, the barrel is a little bit longer, and its not select fire. I hate the term M4gery, and I just wish there was something else I could call my AR besides AR-15 to better describe its features. Before I got my AR, I told a guy at work that I wanted to get an M4, and he went on to enlighten me with all his vast knowledge, of whats involved in owning a “Class III Weapon” :rolleyes: including getting a “Class III license” which costs “a shitload of money” and involves “tons of paperwork”. I really don’t see anything wrong with calling an AR-15 with a shorter barrel, and an M4 stock an M4

if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it must be a chicken! i say that a carbine that appears like an m4 can be called an m4, and that a rifle that looks like an m16 can be called an m16. i do for mine.

sometimes i have to refer to my m1a as an m14 so that people can understand me when i am talking about my socom 16. same goes for my para lmtd, which i just call a 1911 and then explain about the wider receiver.

uh-oh, i said all that (sarcasm guys). is every ak considered an ak47, what about the other models and calibers. just because its not select fire and made in russia.

i dont see the big deal in the verbage. we have already lost out to the lefties in regards to verbage regarding assault weapons, gun violence/control, snipers, ied’s, terrorists, definition of perjury, inhaling, in god we trust, separation of church and state, etc.
:rolleyes:

I suppose this is one of those issues that certain people have strong feelings about, and yes, there have been corporate lawsuits over exactly who can call what an M4, etc.

The common sense rule of thumb in these parts seems to be that terms like M4 are describing a general configuration, and it isn’t terribly important whether the weapon was made by Colt or a competitor – some of the latter being far better than others, of course.

In my mind, an “AR-15” refers generally to a 20" barrelled semi-automatic rifle with a fixed buttstock.

16" barrelled carbines with telescoping buttstocks are probably best described as “AR-15 Carbines,” as Colt set this common-sense precedent in their own marketing.

Others may disagree, of course, but when I hear “M4,” it calls to mind one of two things: in select-fire configuration, a 14.5" barrelled carbine with the characteristic stepped-barrel for installation of the M-203, or in a semi-automatic configuration, a 16" barrelled carbine with the same barrel profile.

Shorter barrels (NFA guns) are generally referred to by the nomenclatures that Colt established for weapons of this class (i.e. “Commando.”), or simply “SBRs.”

So, that begs the question: is a LMT or CMT carbine with a stepped-barrel an “M4?” Technically speaking, no – and that’s where terms like “M4gery” are sometimes used – but in practical terms, the term M4 is accurate enough as a general description. If someone flames you for that kind of basic usage, then they are probably just being elitist and/or unnecessarily disagreeable. It’s not a big deal for most of us, so long as the term used correlates to something that we understand on more-or-less baseline terms.

If you want to get really technical, you could always differentiate between A1, A2, A3 and A4 specification weapons with such qualifiers as “Government Carbine” and such, but again, these terms follow Colt’s lead. Other vendors will name their models with a wide variety of alternative designations, of course, and most of these are not especially useful unless the masses are likely to have some familiarity with the actual weapon being described (a good example of the latter would be the HK 416, or to a lesser extent, the S&W M&P-15T or Noveske N4).

In any event, this is why it has become common practice to refer to a Bushmaster carbine with a stepped-barrel as an “M4” in loose terms, even though it is not – and never will be – a true M4. If that isn’t confusing enough for you, consider that Colt doesn’t even refer to their semi-auto M4 as an “M4,” but instead calls it the “Law Enforcement Carbine” … which is why many owners will specifically state that they are talking about a “LE6920” to eliminate any confusion. I’m really out there on the fringes with a LE6920HB. :slight_smile:

Does any of this really make a difference? Not really, but with so many variants, configurations and manufacturers out there in the AR business these days, we’ve had to adopt some unofficial de facto standards to communicate effectively, and as stated, the fallback position in all of this has usually been to go with whatever Colt named a given model. (I won’t go into the fact that Hartford has long made it their practice to vary things quite a bit even within their own naming conventions.) The overriding point to all of this is simply that the “M4” designation has gone mainstream to the point where it is really a reference an entire class of similar products, much like what has happened with the terms “Kleenex” or “Xerox” over the years.

So, to paraphrase Danger Close, if you’ve got a carbine that looks like an M4, shoots like an M4 and causes you to spend absurd amounts of money on ammo and accessories like an M4, no one here is likely to split hairs with you if it is has something other than a rampant colt on the receiver. The term “M4-type carbine” may be more useful, but it really depends upon who you’re talking to, and what the context of your discussion might be.

Chief

To me it depends on who I am talking to and their level of knowledge.

Naming something is a method to efficiently transmit information, not confuse the listener. Calling something an M4 may make the conversation easier for someone with a cursory knowledge of the subject, whereas talking to a member of the military or NFA knowlegable civilian may cause confusion if I call it an M4.

I use the phrase, “M4 pattern.” This works with other platforms as well:

AK-74 pattern
FAL pattern

etc.

Works for me and is fairly precise.

“M4gery”

It depends if it’s chrome lined! :rolleyes:

Naw dude, it matters if it’s ‘mil-spec’ and has Krylon! :wink:

Not to be pedantic, but a true M16 does not have to be made by Colt. FNH has the contract for the current issue M16s. M4s do come solely through Colt at the moment. I believe the government in their mil-specs define each of these weapons.

Chad

I use the term…“AR15 Carbine” with those in the shooting fraternity, or to those who are less inclined to be “Open” to “Gun Talk”, my “Rifle” to describe my 16" LMT MRP. Any firearm that is shoulder mounted, has a barrel of 16" or longer, and shoots a single projectile is a technically a “Rifle”…isn’t it?

I really dislike people calling things by incorrect names, either as a result of sloopiness or deceit. “AK-47” comes to mind…

The M4 is one of them, but the other problem is some Colt semi-auto guns are actually marked “M4” so they are NOT incorrect when they call it an M4.

This is a huge problem. I’m going to write the ATF for an opinion on the matter.

If I didn’t know any better, I would say that you’re being a wise-ass now.

:wink:

I’m sure that you would be cool with calling this an “M4”, right?

Olympic Arms K3B-M4 - M4 AR-15 Carbine

Words matter, and have meaning. They have correct and incorrect usage. We should endeavor to use them correctly. People may not share that value, but that doesn’t render the issue a matter of opinion or preference.

Proper use of nomenclature and terminology is what distinguishes some from others, and helps in assigning measures of credibility, knowledge, and related values.

I thought that was the term everyone used.

Oh boy! That is uncalled for!

I refer to my Colt 6920 as an M-4, and the people that matter to me know what I’m talking about. I couldn’t afford to feed a real one anyway.

If I ever tried to sell it (perish the thought!) I would refer to it as a 6920 LE carbine, as I have no intent to defraud anyone.

interesting thread,ive been wondering myself.

…at this point im still so excited about my new baby,that i go ahead and take the time to explain what it is in detail to those interested(and some not so interested).:smiley:

I sometimes call anything with an M4 profile barrel an “M4”.

Anything without an M4 barrel I call an “AR”.

This is more or less what I do, and makes the most sense to me. There are so many different configurations and model numbers that being correct in what you call it doesn’t seem very valuable to me. I pretty much call them all AR’s, and if someone wants to talk about specs of parts that is fine.